Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:43:05 +0100, Rasmus Underbjerg
> Pinnerup <pinnerup@...> wrote:
>
> >The issue is the /p/ in the English word "up" (and in "open") - it
> >allegedly goes back to PIE *upo-, but by way of Grimm's Law it

should

> >have become /f/ - and I can't seem to find any answer to why it
> >hasn't.
>
> >The /p/ appears in most other Germanic languages as well (with the
> >exception of those who have gone through the high German sound

shift,

> >who have /f/). Old Norse has /upp/, Gothic /iup/. Old English also

now

> >and then displays two p's. Could it have been a PIE geminate? Are
> >there such things - and are they exempt from Grimm's Law?
>
> The PIE form was either *upó (Greek upó) or *úpo (Skt.

úpa).

> The first would have given Germanic *ub, the second Germanic
> *uf, and both seem to be present: OHG oba > G. ob; ON uf, OE
> ufe-. The forms with /p/ may be explained as coming from
> *ub in the Auslaut, but that doesn't explain the geminate in
> OS/OE upp(a/e), ON upp. A geminate in this position
> suggests a PIE form like *upnó (or *ubnó, or *ubhnó, it
> doesn't make a difference), which should give Germanic *upp,
> at least according to... I think it's Bugge's law, but I'm
> not sure I'm remembering the name correctly.
>

The alternative explanation is that it is a Nordwestblock loan, with
unchanged /p/. I think it's striking how a number of
preverbs/prepositions are similar to the the "water" word *ap-/*up-
(with its odd non-IE 'ablaut', making one think of Kuhn's 'other Old
European', also called the ar-/ur- language). 'ob', the 'proper
Germanic' cognate, survives in German in placenames referring to
rivers, eg. 'Rothenburg ob der Tauber'. Similarly, I think
'ap-'/'up-' etc entered the language as directional adverbs referring
to 'the river' (ie. the neighbourhood river): 'up river', 'down
river' (cf. German 'flussauf', 'flussab'), but in absolute, not
relative terms; 'up/down _our_ river' etc. Note that it seems to have
been inflected for case (in the donor language?): 'apo' vs Gr. 'epi'
(with 'umlaut'?). Cf. the corresonding constructions in Finnish and
Basque: 'under' + NP is constructed as NP + the appropriate case form
(allative, locative) of 'bottom'.

The other 'water preverb/pre-/postposition' is *w-d-,


Torsten