Re: [tied] Re: Plural of 'vatra' in Aromanian -> I found trace of '

On 04-12-12 00:00, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> The surprize was that together with the main form (sg.) 'vatrã'
> there is also indicated a variant of it (sg.) "veatrã" especially in
> the Nothern Part of the Dialect.

It isn't a surprise. It could be expected especially in dialects
transitional between Aromanian and Daco-Romanian if <vatrã> was
attracted to the model of <vardã, fatã> etc. in northern Romanian (where
/a/ in this position is etymologically ambiguous). <veatrã> may then be
no more than a singular back-derived from pl. <vetre>. The crucial thing
is that we find <vatrã, vãtzrî> elsewhere in Aromanian -- _that_ is
incompatible with earlier *veatra, since Aromanian has had no
post-labial monophthongisation.

> Below, I try to reproduce these fragments from Papahagi's
> dictionary:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> VATRã, s.f. pl. vã't,rî - [rom.] vatrã, <<foyer, maison>>, Dal,
> 217; Nic, 114; CEL, 88 ( <srb. vatra); tu vátra a ta s,' c^inus,ea
> árde ([rom.] in vatra ta s,i cenus,a arde, încãlzes,te = în casã
> strãinã nici focul nu te încãlzes,te) PLit,656; u-aflã' vátra arát,e
> ([rom.] vatra a gãsit-o rece, nu a gãsit pe nimeni acasã), PB,272;
> árde vátra-a noástrã ([rom.] arde cãminul nostru), PAnt, 287; BNA, I,
> 30. V. veatrã s,i cacavatrã - cf. s,i alb. vatrë "focolare; cammino".
>
> [...]
>
> VEATRã (nord), s.f. Mih, 533 - v. vatrã.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

Good. And note the author's etymological conclusion, so different from
yours. Do you seriously believe professional linguists are fools who
can't notice a clue right under their noses?

> Adding to the aromanian sg. variant 'veatrã', the Romanian plural
> form: 'vetre', I think that we have enough elements to can assert
> that:
> we have traces that indicates the presence of an older 'e' (/'ea')
> in Common Romanian word for 'vatrã'.
>
> Some Conclusions from here :
>
> 1. 'vatrã' wasn't borrowed in Romanian from Albanian, when the
> Albanian forms was already 'vatrë/votrë', so it has all chances to
> arrive in Romanian from PAlb(Dacian?) Substratum.
>
> 2. the existance of an 'e' in the Old-Romanian form sustains my
> proposed etymology : PAlb (Dacian?) *wai-a:tra (> *weatra > Rom.
> vatra,pl.vetre <-> Ar. vatrã (var. veatrã),pl. vatri/vãtsrî <-> Alb
> Tosk vatër - Gheg votër) (meaning: 'his own fire').

Your strange reluctance to accept the most economic reconstruction is
incomprehensible to me. You prefer to run into all kinds of formal
difficulties just to save a pet idea -- e.g. that the initial /v/ in
this word must be etymological.

Piotr