Re: [tied] Re: Etymology of "Warsaw"

> george knysh wrote:
> > --- tolgs001 <george_st@...> wrote:
> >
> >>> Even for me looks more plausible PIE *wer-s 'rain,
> >> flood' (cf. Alb.
> >>> <vërshoj> 'to ovrflood'), I guess we can't deny the
> >> long
> >>> brotherhood between Slavs and Avars, so the name
> >> could easy
> >>> be of Avar origin <varosh> 'subburb of the castle',
> >> attested
> >>> in many place names (cf. also Vrshac in Banat).
> >>>
> >>> Konushevci
> >>
> >> cf. Hungarian város ['va:roS] "city" < vár [va:r]
> >> "fortress,
> >> castle" (< PIE *wer ?) & Romanian ora$ [o-'raS]
> >> "city".
> >>
> >> George
> >
> > *****GK: Is there anything in the archaeology of
> > Warsaw to indicate that it might have been a fortress
> > in Avar times (say up to the end of the 8th c. when
> > Avar power collapsed)? If not the above speculation is
> > rather idle.****
>
>
> that is a pertinent question regarding the arheological aspect. I am not
> sure how pertinent is my question:
> -why no methathesis in "Vars^-" if the "-ova" is just the simply suffix?
> I put this question because a similar sounding word presents the
> methathesis. I mean for instance here the Sl. "vraz^a" or "vrac^" or
> "vrabiI" or "vrahU", "vraz^Ida".
> The same situation is in Bulgarian where the name "varna" does not present
> the expected methathesis as in word "vrana".

I do not know the etymology of Bulgarian "varna" (nor its meaning, what is
it?), but I think this var- in varna could never undergo the metathesis, as
this -ar- might have come out of -o:r-, which is a cluster that did not
undergo the change. Therefore (appart from other possibilities), -ar- in
Vars^- could have its origin in older -o:r-, i.e. Vars- < *vo:rs-

Similar situation is in Czech "var", "var^iti", "va'rka", "varna", "var-"
being from PS vo~r ("PS lengthening") {PS *variti (to cook) is often
considered a causative of *vIre^ti (to boil)}

I am not sure about the etymology of Varna (if it were the same var- as in
Czech, and varna meant the same thing as in Cz, it would be easy :-)),
neither do I know if there is a root or stem like vo:r-, vo:rs- in any
European language, can anyone help? :-)
Might this vo:r- component be, in a way, a descendant of IE *wer- "to burn"
or *wer- (funny homonyma) "to watch" (just like in OCz "vari" = "watch out,
be care ful, I warn you, step aside, etc.")? And, could the second part of
the word come from something like PS *s^Iv- (e.g. Czech s^ev < PS * s^IvU "a
suture" from PS *s^iti, s^IjoN < IE *sju:- "to sew")?

What would such a compound mean? "Guard the suture!", "Watch out, a
suture!"? :-)))

Petusek

>
> Alex