Re: [tied] Re: Wuz

----- Original Message -----
From: tgpedersen
Subject: [tied] Re: Wuz

<<<French <gueux> > (loan) Dutch <geus> is obvious, I think, given the
shared meaning 'beggar'.<<<

No doubt. But it was (and still is) the line *wos->gueux>geus i have probs
with (less probs with Du guit > Fr gueux > Du geus; no problems with Fr.
gueux > Du geus). As for French, the oldest attestation for gueux (or
related forms gueuse) is as late as the _XVIth_ century. How do you account
for that, if you want to connect 'gueux' to *wos? Furthermore, how would you
explain the sound represented by Fr. <eu> in connection with Gmc. *o, while
Du <ui> is easily mixed up with <eu>, at least by modern francophones.
[Sorry, i do not know how to, erm, "SAMPA" the Dutch diphthongues, hence the
<graphemic representations>].

> According to P. Giraud gueux is a doublet of queux, "cuisinier".

<<<Hm. And what exactly does he mean by 'doublet'?<<<

In the case gueux-gueuse/queux: both are related to VLat. *coxus, coxa,
past. part. of cocere, Cl.Lat. coquere, _dixit Giraud_. He sees in gueuse a
Norm.-Pic. variant of cueux, cuese.


<<<What does Verdam have to say about <guit>?<<<

Not very much.
* Verdam: "GUITE (guit, guut), znw. m. Guit. Zie Franck op guit.
Via 'guut' i arrived at:
* Verdam: "GOKEN, zw. ww. trans. Van gooc, dus slechts middellijk met
gokelen verwant. Het is daarvan niet het stamwoord, gelijk het in Vrouw. e.
M. Gloss. en bij De Jager, Freq. wordt voorgesteld. Voor den gek houden,
bedriegen, om den tuin leiden, bij den neus nemen. Vgl. guten, d. i.
spotten, smalen, smaden, van guut (guit), dat een synon. van gooc is.

* Van Dale: gives a series of cognates in LG, Fri, ON, ModNorw., all meaning
something as talking nonsense, mocking etc.
and ends with "vermoedelijk klanknabootsend", in which he partially follows
Vercoullie.
* Vercoullie goes a step further, and relates 'guit' with German Kauz, the
bird, stating that the old Du plural 'guits' is a wrong interpration of
guit+s, (see: Kauz /kauts/). He ends with (paraphrased): "Guits" > Fra.
gueux, is actually a singular form.

Frank


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