Re: [tied] Re: Utility of Articles (was: Rise of the Feminine)

From: Âàäèì Ïîíàðÿäîâ
Message: 32443
Date: 2004-05-02

 
Me:
>> It is so in the sense that in the languages of Eastern
and South-
Eastern Asia the usage of classifiers is a very developed feature.
But really, something similar is attested also in many other
languages, including some IE ones.
>> ... I think, something similar exists even
in such English
expressions as: two cups of coffee, five glasses of milk, etc.
 
Richard:
> In the examples you give, the construction is resorted
to
because 'coffee' and 'milk' are uncountable.  And the classifier
analogue is not fixed; you could have two mugs of coffee, depending
on whether you have a saucer to rest the container on.  A good
example is beer - three bottles of beer / three mugs of beer / three
pints of peer - depending very much on how it is dispensed.  At a
pinch 'coffee' and 'beer' may be made countable in commerical
cicumstances, where the unit is fixed by context.

> The better analogy is 'three head of
cattle'.  The classifier-
equivalent is fixed here.  But I wonder if this is because 'cattle'
is close to being uncountable, perhaps because it has no singular,
but has an obvious unit.  I do not feel comfortable saying 'three
cattle'; I would say 'three cows', or 'three heifers', or 'three
bullocks', etc. depending on the age and sex of the animals.

 
I think that it is possible to describe English as a language that needs classifiers with uncountable nouns :-) It is interesting that in Russian, where classifiers are used more widely, with uncountable nouns they are not obligatory (as thay are not with other nouns). For example, when you are buying two bottles of milk in a shop, you may say either:
 
dve butylki moloka
two CLF (lit. bottles) milk
 
or:
 
dva moloka
two milk
 
Nevertheless, the construction without classifiers becomes impossible if the numeral demands the noun to be morpholoically plural ("2", "3", "4" in Russian do not, but others do). It is because uncountable nouns have no plural form, and therefore when buying 10 bottles of milk, it is possible to say only <desjat' butylok moloka> - with a classifier.
 
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Vadim Ponaryadov