--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
> 15-04-2004 10:37, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > And, again according to Kuhn, the suffix -st- is typical of the
> > Nordwestblock.
>
> But *-ist- is found in Germanic too, most obviously as the
superlative
> suffix, but also in derived nouns, such as the 'horse' word
*xangistaz ~
> *xanxistaz.
That reminds me: Southern related Germanic *xank- "hang" to German
<hinken> "limp" (actually, in Danish <hinke> is "jumping on one foot
(as in children's games)"). Møller related both to Semitic verbs
meaning "impede, obstruct", specifically by tying together, or to
something, the legs of the camel. How a tied horse becomes a
stallion, I have no idea, but if it's so, we should be looking in
AfroAsiatic for the -VstV- suffix.
>Besides, it isn't clear that Segestes contains such a
> suffix; the PIE ancestor of <Sieg> was an es-neuter (*ség^Hos,
*seg^Hes-
> 'victory', cf. Skt. sáhas-, Av. hazah-, Gothic sigis, all of them
> neuters), so the <-s-> may well belong to the base; and the word
may be
> a truncated compound rather than a suffixed formation.
>
Aha. And truncated from?
> > And there is plenty of <segest-> names elsewhere. Note
> > the alliterating names within one family.
>
> That's precisely why I'm sure we have the same initial element in
> Segimerus and Segistes.
>
Not only Germanic.
Kuhn, Vor- und Frühgermanische Ortsnamen:
"... Sein (the suffix -VstV-'s) Vorkommen in Nordwwestdeutschland
wird dabei, obschon Ernst Förstemann daraus schon 100 jahren
aufmerksam war (Die deutschen Ortsnamen, 1863, 251), wenn überhaupt,
so nur am rande erwähnt. Förstemann nennt da unter anderen <Seguste>,
dass allein schon den Zusammenhang mit Südeuropa sichert. Denn im
weiten Raum des Mittelmeers sind 3 alte <Segesta> bekannt (in
Venetien,Ligurien und Sizilien), dazu 2 <Segestica> (in Kroatien und
Spanien), 1 Segustero (in Südfrankreich, mit dem Stammesnamen
<Segesteri>), und schliesslich in Kleinasien der Stammesname
<Segestani>. Allein Plinius nennt alle 3 <Segesta> und 1 <Segestica>.
Essind sicher einmahl mehr gewesen. Auch bei uns ist das genannte
<Seguste> (jetzt <Segeste>, s. Hildesheim) nicht allein. Ein zweites
(jetzt <Seeste>) liegt unweit Osnabrück, dazu wahrscheilich ein
drittes (Zeist) bei Utreht und vielleicht sogar ein viertes bei
Krefeld (<Kierst>, <Langst> und <Nierst>. Und dann der bekannte
cheruskische Mannesname <Segestes>."
The first part of the word he identifies with the first part of the
(Old European) river names <Segontia> and <Sigina>.
On the suffix -st- in general he has a theory (in "Warst, Werstine
und Warstein") that many Germanic names ending today in High German <-
stein>, LG <-steen> originally ended in <-st>, the <-(e)n> added as
kind of folk etymology to the originally Nordwestblock <-st>, as that
suffix, which by then was associated with the vanquished, slowly
disappearing Nordwestblock people making up the lower classes in
Northwest Germany, the Netherlands and England.
For England, Kuhn finds very few <-sta:n> names before 800. Later he
finds an increasing number, among them (Gray Birch's Cartularium
Saxonicum doc. 365) one <Tur-sta:n>.
Huh?
No /þ/, but /t/. That means, if I may beg the moderator's
forgiveness, that first part is not <þorr>, but <tur>, whoever that
is. And <sta:n> is not a stone. Well, I always wondered what Thor
would want that stone for, anyway (since people accuse me of
exclusively being interested in this subject because of my name, I
might as well indulge myself).
Bearing in mind that Vennamann thinks the Picts are the last remnant
of his Semitic Atlantiker, allow me a short quote from Helaine
Newstead: The Origin and Growth of the Tristan Legend. In Roger
Sherman Lewis(ed.) Arthurian Literature in the Middle Ages: A
collaborative history, 122-133. Oxford: Clarendon Press. (here quoted
from Vennemann: Atlantiker in Nordwesteuropa: Pikten und Vanan): p.
125
" The clue to the earliest stage of the Tristan legend is the name of
the hero. It has long been acknowledged that Tristan owes his name to
a certain Drust, son of Tallorc, a king of the Picts, who reigned in
Northern Scotland about 780. The names Drust and Talorc, and their
derivatives Drostan and Talorcan, appear repeatedly as royal names in
the chronicles of the Picts. The name Drust is thus distinctively
Pictish. ... The connexion between the name of the historic king and
the legendary Tristan is established by the Welsh sources. In the
Welsh triads the name appears as Drystan or Trystan son of
Tallwch. ... According to the Welsh triads, moreover, this Drystan
son of Tallwch was the lover of Essylt, the wife of his uncle March
son of Meirchiaw. ... Drystan son of Tallwch is the Welsh equivalent
of Drust[]an] son of Tallorc; and since Tallwch is not a native Welsh
name and since it occurs only as Drystan's patronymic, it is evident
tha Drystan son of Tallwch is the intermediate form between the
Pictish Drust and the Tristan of the romances".
Oh, how interesting I am! And futhermore, I'm O negative too!
Tristan Etcheberria Pedersen