The palatal sham :) (Re: [tied] Re: Albanian (1))

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:06:38 +0000, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
>
> >So much for that. I'd like to discuss the idea that supposed PIE
> >plain velars occur only in loans. So, fire away, list some

examples

> >of what you believe to be incontrovertible examples of plain

velars

> >and I'll check with Møller and Bomhard.
>
> *-(i)ko- "diminutive suffix".
>
> >I find them, you lose; I don't find them, I lose. OK?
>
> You lose. If only because Møller and Bomhard don't list suffixes.
>
> Anyway, this is silly. I can find any vowel or consonant occurring

in a

> PIE root in Möller and/or Bomhard. And if I don't find anything

specific

> enough, I can try Illich-Svitych, Dolgopolskij, Gamqrelidze/Ivanov,
> Starostin, Greenberg, or even Ruhlen and Manansala, until I find

it. That

> doesn't mean anything.
>

Your parody of what I'm proposing is silly alright. I'll be checking
for matching roots containing 'plain velars' in Møller and Bomhard,
not "vowels or consonants".

You said (something like):

"The existence of reconstructed PIE *kap- "take" proves that PIE had
plain velars"

Bomhard 242:
PN *k{h][a|&]p[h]- "to take, to seize; hand"
PIE *k{h]ap[h]- "to take, to seize"
PAA *k[h][a|&]p[h]- "TO TAKE, TO SEIZE; HAND"
PFU *kappe- "to take, to seize, to grasp"
*käppä- "hand, paw"
PD *kapp- "to touch, to feel"
PA *kap- "to grasp, to seize"


In the face of that, one might propose one of two mutually exclusive
alternatives:

1) PIE *kap- is a loanword from some other language
2) PIE *kap- is not loaned from anywhere

I wonder which choice of alternative has the greatest chance of
making you look silly.


Torsten