[tied] Re: Against the theory of 'Albanian Loans in Romanian'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

> 27-01-04 20:43, m_iacomi wrote:
>
>> Assuming that the label is rather "corresponding", one should take
>> into account not only "cioarã" <=> "sorrë" (`crow`) and "cãciulã"

<=>

>> "kësulë" (`(fur) cap`) but also "gresie" (AR: greasã, MgR: grEsE -
>> `gritstone, whetstone`) <=> "gresë", "abeS" (`really!`) <=> "besë",
>> "hameS" (`hungry`) <=> "hamës", "raTã" (`duck`) <=> "rosë" or
>> "traista" (`bag`) <=> "tra(j)stë", not to mention other less clear
>> correspondences, none of them exhibiting Rom. /c^/ for Alb. /s/.
>> Is there any other example for your rule out of the two above-
>> mentioned?!
>
> For 'whetstone', the Ectaco dictionary gives Alb. grihë. I haven't
> worked out its etymology yet (from *gHrendH-sk-?), let alone its
> relation to Rom. greasã, which may be far from straightforward.

It is given in different forms as "gër(r)esë" `Schabholz, Schabeisen,
bes.
der Töpfer` (cf. Rosetti) and "gresë" `whetstone`.

> Word-finally, as in <abe$> and <hame$>, /s^/ is, I think, a reduced
> reflex of *c^, not normally found in this position in Romanian.

... "aici", "atunci", "baci", "brânci", "cãci, "deci", "beci", etc.
Final /c^/ hasn't the tendence to be reduced to /s^/ in normal
Romanian
(it's only a regional Moldavian feature, with little relevance for the
whole DR area -- "abe$" is even regionalism from Banat -- W Romania)
and
hasn't had historically this tendence.

> <raTã> has /c/, which under my analysis is the intermediate

historical

> stage between Proto-Albanian *c^ and Modern Albanian /s/, so we may

be

> dealing with a post-Proto-Albanian loan.

Well, giving some timeline (even roughly) would certainly be of some
help.
BTW, there is also dialectal Italian (North) "razze" `id.`.

> There must have been such loans (I also think <hame$> is not exactly

of

> Balkan Latin age, or it wouldn't have kept its <h> /x/).

Of course; it remains that obviously related Romanian and Albanian
words
have no clear correspondent in other neighbouring languages.

> Not everything that underlies a "correspondence" is a substratal

word:

> <trastë> does not look like a native or even a particularly old

word in

> Albanian.

It doesn't. But the fact remains that Romanian "traistã" (and
"straiTã")
are perfectly in fit with Albanian "trastë" (and "strajcë") `bag`.
Maybe
some late Slavic loanword could explain say the s-word, but there is
still
to explain the fit of the t-word, seemingly related.

> It's practically impossible to get medial /st/ from anything in the
> language. A Mediaeval loan from a common source (which, to be sure,

I

> can't identify at the moment) seems more likely than anything else.

The phonetics speaks for a late loan, other features are yet to be
clarified.

Regards,
Marius Iacomi