Re: [tied] Romanian Frunzã 'leaf, foliage' (was: Romanian senin)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> Richard Wordingham wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...>

wrote:

> >> Cununã seems to be the very old word if we take a look at the
> >> phonological aspect.I guess this is to find in "frunzã" which
> > seems to
> >> be older as the Latin "frondia".( BTW do you know the
> > demonstration of
> >> Timotei Cipariu regarding Rom. "frunza" and Latin "frondia"?)
> >
> > No. The rules, as I encoded them (too) many months ago, happily
> > derive frunzã from both *frondia and *frundia. The biggest

problem

> > with this word is that the neuter plural form is not attested in
> > Classical Latin - Classical Latin has fro:ns, frond-, which is
> > feminine. Its older form is fru:ns, frund-, and the n.s. forms
> > fru:s and fro:s are both attested. What is your point?
> >
> > Richard.
>
> First, I am not aware of the demonstration made by the Latinist

Timotei

> Cipariu for showing exactly how he considered this, this is why I

asked

> about if someone know it. I can just quote as follow from what I
> remember of his words:
> "daca stãm oblu si gandim drept, apai pare ca limba Româna ar fi

muma

> celei Latinesti si nu invers".
> Mr Iacomi and Mr Stanca maybe remember better about this or maybe

even

> know the demonstration of him, I will try to translate:
> "if we think right, it appears as if Rom. Lang should be the

mother of

> Latin Language and not vice versus".
> Of course it appears "irresponsible" a such affirmation but there

are

> many words where some linguists amused about considering "we cannot
> speak about Latin before Latin" and this sentence was made up due

the

> Romanian words which request a protoform of the Latin word.

(Details if

> requested but I am afraid for instance Miguel is aware of such
> situations)
> Now to "frunzã". "Frunzã" is a feminine noun and it can derive from
> *frunsa, *fronso/*frunsa

What other examples do you offer for such a development?

You are aware now, I trust, that '-ns' is regarded as probably an
indicator of the morphology than a strictly phonetic spelling? The
restoration of the <n> is not reflected in Proto-Romance. Classic
examples are (1) French _moise_ 'carpenter's workbench' inherited
from Latin _me:nsa_ 'table' and (2) French _peser_ 'to weigh'
inherited from Latin _pe:nsa:re_ 'to weigh', as opposed to French
_penser_ 'to think' _borrowed_ from Latin _pe:nsa:re_. The
different vowels in the inherited froms are due to stress - compare
French _poids_ (the 'd' is a slightly false etymological spelling
introduced in Modern French) 'weight' from Latin _pe:nsum_ 'weight'.

Richard.