Re: [tied] RE: etyma for Crãciun,RomanianforChristmas

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> Mate Kapović wrote:
> > I will deal here with kracˇun more extensively. As I said, I

didn't

> > have time before.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
> > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tied] RE: etyma for Crãciun,RomanianforChristmas
> >
> >> Among the evidence discussed so far, East Slavic -oro- is a

strong

> >> argument in favour of original *-or-, and therefore in favour of
> >> Slavic origin, but as far as I'm concerned, it would be

premature to

> >> rule out alternative explanations.
> >
> > For me, this is *crucial* evidence. How could Latin creatione-,
> > Romanian crăciun or anything in between which has -raC- or

similar

> > go to Slavic *-orC- which is primary as attested by East Slavic
> > polnoglasie (Russian korocˇun)? There is no way possible, as

I
see

> > it.
> >
> >> Yesterday you wrote: "But there is no such word in Croatian or
> >> Serbian. Only as somekind of a name not necessarily related,

not in

> >> the meaning Christmas". That's a bit vague. Does it or doesn't

it

> >> exist in Croatian?
> >
> > It does. I wrote that before I got hand of the other data some of
> > which I cited.
> >
> >> If it does, what does it mean there?
> >
> > In Croatian it is a name and something like a (door) latch.

There is

> > also a verb zakracˇunati. The semantics is probably from

something

> > like "bent, twisted" which is the meaning attested in other

Slavic

> > lgs.
> >
> >> To decide either way I'd have
> >> to examine its forms and meanings in those Slavic languages

that have

> >> it. >
> >
> > Here we go:
> > except Croatian there are also Bulgarian kracˇun "Christmas

Eve; 8th

> > or 21th of July; sommer/winter solstices", dialectally also "big
> > foot". Slovene kracˇun "wedge", Slovakian kracˇún,

kracˇunˇ

> > "Christmas", Old Russian korocˇun7, korocˇjun7

"prechristmas
fast",

> > Russian karacˇun "solstices; 12th of December; st.

Spiridon",
dial.

> > karacˇun "Christmas ceremony", "Christmas fast", "sudden

death",

> > "evil spirit, demon, child that crawls". Ukr. kracˇun,

kerecˇun,

> > krecˇun, gerecˇun, grecˇun "a bun made on 24th of

December",

> > Belorussian dial. (Polesie) karacˇun "something bent; bent

wood;

> > short man; man with twisted legs". Also Albanian kërcun "log"

(cf.

> > Croatian Badnjak "Christmas Eve"~ badanj "log").
> > Semantics "which treads, steps, strides" (> "big foot" etc.)
> "death,
> > depart", "leaving, going from the sun to the winter etc."

also "a new

> > step, a step into smth new, a new beginning".
> >
> > So we have the word in various meanings (which would be very

strange

> > if it were a late loan from Romance) in Croatian, Bulgarian,

Slovene,

> > Slovakian, Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian. The semantics

itself

> > is a point to its Slavic origin, I think and the connection with
> > *kork7 is pretty clear. Also, polnoglasie proves there was a

primary

> > *-orC- here. I think this word is Slavic and it was loaned into
> > Romanian but I am not a Romanian expert so there may be some

mixture

> > with Romance offsprings of Latin calatione-, creatione-. I don't
> > know. But in Slavic lgs I think it is definitely not loaned.
> >
> > Mate
>
> It appears to be definitely a loan into Slavic. I just advice you

to

> take a look at the ending of the word. It appears to be not a

generaly

> Romance ending , but a typically Romanian one "-c^un".I should have
> expected for Slavic here an "c^on" or " c^o~".
> You like to deal here with the root which can be as well in Slavic

too

> but the form of the word presents the Romanian patern with the same
> ending in ALL the Slavic language which is mostly unusual.
> The semantic appears to be "to split" if one think

that "crac", "cracã",

> "crãc^it" are the non-nasalised form of the root (the nasalised

forms

> are "creangã, crâng". All these words shows a point of

splitting "in

> two". The meaning of Craciun can be the day where the year change

(after

> the old tradition), thus the day where we have the split: one year

goes,

> the another come.
> As Mr. Iacomi pointed our, in Slavic the word is appearing in the
> regions where the Slavs are intermingled or are living togethere

with

> Rom. comunities. I see none mentioned here the word appears as

personal

> name and in a lot of toponyms as well.
> I should have just a question here: the slavic examples you gave,

do

> they present the affricated group "c^" or the "c" you wrote here

is to

> understand as "ts"?
>
> Alex

<In Croatian it is a name and something like a (door) latch. There
is also a verb zakracˇunati. The semantics is probably from
something like "bent, twisted" which is the meaning attested in
other Slavic lgs.>

Mate,

No 'bent, twisted' sense in Romanian, to my knowledge.

But the instrument you describe as a door latch and the
corresponding verb (does it also mean something like closing ?)
certainly looks like that little ubiquitous Saturnian instrument
used to cut mistletoe at solstices, with a Gallic pride as an
extra...

Otherwise you have to bend small branches (Romanian crãci - with "a
crãci" as the infinitive of a verb meaning "to open wide" - also
applied to legs and trousers) in order to break them loose.

Truly, sine-ke/rastos-ly yours,
Dan