Dear Mr. Iacomi,
I want to thank you for your detail explanations.
Please answer me an additional questions related to this subject.
You said :
> As stated, there are probably very few loans from OCS in Romanian
> but a lot of loanwords from South Slavic in Romanian
When I read this I try to take from the romanian dictionary the
loans from Slavic (OCS or as you said South Slavic, but not later
loans from sb. or bulg.) to romanian (I used DEX as reference).
I arrived to make a complete list (or almost complete) for the
letters A and B. Here is :(sorry for the incorrect spellings...)
#----------------------------------------------------------
# Sl.-A -> 14
#----------------------------------------------------------
01, afurisi ,<ngr. aphorizo <sl. aforisati
02, agheasmă ,<sl. agiazma, ngr. agiásma
03, aidoma ,<sl.a +vidomû
04, aievea ,<sl.a + javì
05, aleluia ,<sl. aleluija
06, amin ,<sl. aminû
07, amvon ,<sl. amûvonû
08, anafură ,<sl. [a]nafora
09, aprilie ,<sl. aprilí
10, arhanghel ,<sl. arhangelû
11, arhiepiscop ,<sl. arhiepiskopû
12, arhiereu ,<sl. arhierei
13, arhimandrit ,<sl. arhimandritû
14, arminden ,<sl. Iereminû-dín²
#----------------------------------------------------------
# Sl.-B -> 30
#----------------------------------------------------------
01, babă ,<sl. baba
02, baie ,<sl. banja
03, baltă ,<sl. blato<alb.balte:
04, basm ,<sl. basn²
05, băjenie ,<sl. bìanije
06, băl(ai) ,<sl. bìlû
07, bârlog ,<sl. brûlogû
08, bârnă ,<sl. brûv²no
09, bâtă ,<sl. bûtû
10, becisnic ,<sl. beţist²nikû
11, belciug ,<sl. bìliţugû
12, beli ,<sl. bìliti
13, beznă ,<sl. bezdûna
14, bici ,<sl. biţ²
15, biet ,<sl. bìdinû
16, bivol ,<sl. byvolû
17, blagoslovi ,<sl. blagosloviti
18, blajin ,<sl. blaìnû
19, blid ,<sl. bliudû
20, boală ,<sl. bol²
21, bob ,<sl. bobû
22, bogat ,<sl. bogatû
23, boier ,<sl. boljarinû
24, bold ,<sl. bodl²
25, boli ,<sl. bolìti ; deriv.boală
26, brazdă ,<sl. brazda
27, breaslă ,<sl. brat²stvo
28, brici ,<sl. briţi
29, buche ,<sl. buky
30, buiac ,<sl. bujakû
When I saw this list (I agree that is ONLY the list of words
starting with A or B), I think that the romanian loans come directly
from OCS that was used as liturgic language for romanians at that
time...and not, or to be more precise, not especially, to a direct
contact with a south slavonic population (that of course existed too).
Please take a look : all the "A" loans are liturgical terms, and
also a lot of "B" words are very related to the Bible "expression
style" (that is not a "happy" one ... ).
So I imagine : the romanians hearing each day at the church the
old slavonic BIBLE texts , and as a result, the meaning of these
words cannot remains outside them ...
My additional question in order to further check this assumption
is the following :
The great majority of the Slavic loans in Romanian arrived in
Romanian after Cyril and Methodius Bible or before?
As you have explained me :
> they have some reluctance to admit Slavic loans without metathesis,
seems as an argument that the great majority of Slavic loans
arrived in Romanian after metathesis so it could be also after Cyril
and Methodius Bible ...
If the great majority of this loans arrived in romanian ONLY after
Cyril and Methodius Bible, and as I know : the slavic population
arrive 200-300 hundred years before this, my assumption that the
great majority of romanian loans were taken directly from OCS Bible,
has a strong support.
This assumption could explain also the great impact of Slavonic
on the romanian language. If we take a look to the hungarian
loanwords in Romanian (even in Transylvania, where we are SURE for a
direct contact between the 2 populations for about 800-1000 years )
the impact is far to be so huge as the Slavonic impact.
Because I don't have enough knowledge in this area please give me
your opinion on this.
Thanks again and Best Regards,
marius a.
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "m_iacomi" <m_iacomi@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" wrote:
>
> > If we find a word in 2 (or more) languages (like OCS and
> > romanian), how do we know that this is a loan from OCS to
romanian
> > and not a loan from Romanian to OCS.
>
> First of all, the probability to have a loan from OCS into Romanian
> is low. As hinted in #26227 of cybalist, "first Romanian loanwords
> aren't necessarily took from OCS, but from some Slavic idiom(s) not
> too different". The reason for which Romanian dictionaries usually
> give the OCS form is that the word is attested under that form and
> OCS is a South Slavic dialect, probably not very different from the
> tongue of most Slavs having influenced (Proto-)Romanian. But OCS was
> not a South Slavic dialect spoken North of Jirecek line: it was a
> somehow "improved" Bulgarian based on the Slavic tongue spoken
around
> Thessaloniki at the moment of its' creation.
>
> > I mean what criteria we have to follow.
>
> There are several general criteria, as attestation in other idioms
> of the group (in our case: other Slavic languages), attestation in
> other Balkan languages, phonetics, semantical evolution, historical
> and geographical data, etc.
>
> > And a second questions related to this :
> > - are there romanian loans (even not latin) in OCS? or there
> > are only OCS words in romanian?
>
> As stated, there are probably very few loans from OCS in Romanian
> and no Romanian loanword in OCS, but a lot of loanwords from South
> Slavic in Romanian and many loanwords from Romance & Romanian in
> Slavic neighbouring languages.
>
> > I give you an example :
> >
> > rom. gard , <alb. gardh, sl. gradû
>
> This is a bad example.
>
> > in your previous discussions rom."gard" was considered as a
slavic
> > loan in Romanian (Piotr).
>
> Well, many Romanian linguists still consider it substratal (since
> they have some reluctance to admit Slavic loans without metathesis,
> the word exists also in Albanian and in other IE languages,
including
> Phrygian possible cognate "gordo-"). Piotr argues (see #24502) for
> some "Germanic "diffusion centre"", but recognizes word's "etymon is
> a very messy affair". :-)
>
>
> > However I found it in Ulfila Bible(311) as "gards" (gothic).
>
> That proves you didn't read too carefully the messages on cybalist:
> Gmc. "*gardaz" was already discussed, so you should make reference
> not to Gothic as particular Germanic language, but to Germanic in
> general.
>
> > So
> > a) it is a germanic word loan by Daco-Romanians and
albanians
> > and next used by the slavs or
> >
> > b) It is a germanic word loan by slavs and next used by
> > Romanians and albanians
>
> Might be. :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Marius Iacomi