--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" wrote:
> If we find a word in 2 (or more) languages (like OCS and
> romanian), how do we know that this is a loan from OCS to romanian
> and not a loan from Romanian to OCS.
First of all, the probability to have a loan from OCS into Romanian
is low. As hinted in #26227 of cybalist, "first Romanian loanwords
aren't necessarily took from OCS, but from some Slavic idiom(s) not
too different". The reason for which Romanian dictionaries usually
give the OCS form is that the word is attested under that form and
OCS is a South Slavic dialect, probably not very different from the
tongue of most Slavs having influenced (Proto-)Romanian. But OCS was
not a South Slavic dialect spoken North of Jirecek line: it was a
somehow "improved" Bulgarian based on the Slavic tongue spoken around
Thessaloniki at the moment of its' creation.
> I mean what criteria we have to follow.
There are several general criteria, as attestation in other idioms
of the group (in our case: other Slavic languages), attestation in
other Balkan languages, phonetics, semantical evolution, historical
and geographical data, etc.
> And a second questions related to this :
> - are there romanian loans (even not latin) in OCS? or there
> are only OCS words in romanian?
As stated, there are probably very few loans from OCS in Romanian
and no Romanian loanword in OCS, but a lot of loanwords from South
Slavic in Romanian and many loanwords from Romance & Romanian in
Slavic neighbouring languages.
> I give you an example :
>
> rom. gard , <alb. gardh, sl. gradû
This is a bad example.
> in your previous discussions rom."gard" was considered as a slavic
> loan in Romanian (Piotr).
Well, many Romanian linguists still consider it substratal (since
they have some reluctance to admit Slavic loans without metathesis,
the word exists also in Albanian and in other IE languages, including
Phrygian possible cognate "gordo-"). Piotr argues (see #24502) for
some "Germanic "diffusion centre"", but recognizes word's "etymon is
a very messy affair". :-)
> However I found it in Ulfila Bible(311) as "gards" (gothic).
That proves you didn't read too carefully the messages on cybalist:
Gmc. "*gardaz" was already discussed, so you should make reference
not to Gothic as particular Germanic language, but to Germanic in
general.
> So
> a) it is a germanic word loan by Daco-Romanians and albanians
> and next used by the slavs or
>
> b) It is a germanic word loan by slavs and next used by
> Romanians and albanians
Might be. :-)
Cheers,
Marius Iacomi