Re: alb. gji (breast) - maybe PIE *sei-N-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
>
>> m_iacomi wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, right. See the expression "a scuipa în sân", equally
>>> valid for men and women, in which "sân" means `bosom`.
>>
>> Keep your expresion in mind. We will comme on it. For me :
>> breast= piept, sân
>> bosom, tit= TâTã;

Once for all, forget about "=" sign, it is not to be used because
it's misleading. Use "" for actual words, and `` or '' for meanings.

Now: the basical meaning in Latin of word "sinus" (short /i/) is
`curved or bent surface`, thus being used to depict curvely shaped
objects. From this basical meaning, two further developements are
immediate:

1. part of (female) chest making it look (so nicely) curvely shaped:
there are two mammas which make the deal for women (men mammas are
rudimentary and not so curvely shaped). This meaning corresponds to
Romanian "TâTã"; Romanian "sân" covers also this meaning;

2. part of the (female) chest looking curvely shaped (where the two
mammas are placed). Romanian "piept" (`chest`) and "sân" can have
this meaning. This one of the meanings already attested in Latin.

From the latter, another extension is natural and is to be found
in Latin and Romances: `that part of the chest where the mammas (be
them real or rudimentary) are found` (that is: regardless of curves'
existence).

Still in Latin (also in Romances), the place where the mammas are
found, being also the place in which the mother puts the child to
feed him and to protect him with her arms, was an ideal candidate
to develop other meanings related to `protected place`, `safe place`,
`pleasant place`, `worm place`, `inner place` and so on. So it did.

There is no mistery for other semantical slips related to 2 which
do occur in Romanian. Most Romances have them too, and even if they
weren't attested in Latin, the derivations are too obvious to spend
time with details.

>> sân= cf DEX
>> 1) each one of the both mamels of the woman.; breast.
>
> It's supposed to have been a Latin usage, but I could find no
> evidence of such a meaning in the Persues on-line dictionary
> <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=la>. It's
> most definitely not the usual Classical Latin word for the female
> breast. It looks like a (Western) Romance development, and thus to
> be expected in Late Latin.

When something is to be found everywhere in Romance, there is a good
probability to assume it was at least a Latin tendency.

>> 2) the chest
>
>> 3) part of the chemise ; the space betwen breast and chemise where
>> one can keep something
>
> In Latin: 'The hanging fold of the upper part of the toga, about the
> breast, the bosom of a garment; also the bosom of a person;
> sometimes also the lap (= gremium, the predom. class. signif.; esp.
> freq. in a trop. sense).' - Charles & Short.

... meaning conserved also in Italian: "nascondere qualcosa in seno"
->
`tra il vestito e il petto`, French "Cacher, dissimuler, mettre un
billet/une lettre dans son sein" -> `espace entre la poitrine et les
vêtements` or Spanish: "Sacó del seno una bolsa." -> `Espacio o hueco
que queda entre el vestido y el pecho`.

>> Now expresions which i will translate mot a mot and I will give the
>> meaning of these expresions, why they are used.
>>
>> a scuipa in sân = to spit in and breast ( place between chemise and
>> breast)
>> Meaning: to avoid happening something bad you have to spite this

way.

>> Superstions of the folk.
>>
>> a fi cu crucea în sân= to be with the cross in the breast ( too,
>> place between chemise and breast)
>> Meaning: to have fear of god, to be a god christ but too , the
>> same one is to be hypocrite.

Perfectly covered by Latin and Romance.

>> a trâi ca in sânul lui Avram= to live like in the breast of

Abraham.

>> Meaning: to have a very good life. I am not aware of the story with
>> Abraham and why one should live god there:-)

In Spanish: "seno de Abraham: 1. m. Lugar en que estaban detenidas
las almas de los fieles que habían pasado de esta vida en la fe y con
esperanza del Redentor" or in French: "Le sein d'Abraham -> Lieu de
repos où se trouvaient les âmes des justes avant la venue du Messie;
par extension, le paradis. Reposer dans le sein d'Abraham."

>> On the basis of the meanings and in the expresions which are used,
>> it seems there is no connection with the female teat, but the word
>> have meant something like a space where to put/keep something; the
>> sence of "female bosom" appears to be the very last one and I

wonder

>> if this is not a semantical "import" due french or italian because
>> no expresion used by folk is related to meaning female's teat.

In the light of Latin and Romance meanings, the above text is BS.

> Basically, the senses Alex regards as learned imports are those
> which do *not* occur in Classical Latin. Semantically, there is no
> problem in linking Classical Latin _sinus_ and peasant Romanian

_sân_.

>
> "TâTã" is mildly curious. It appears to be a loan from German
> _Zitze_ 'udder', as does Italian _zizza_ (not in my dictionary).

Italian "zizza" is supposed to be from a Longobard "*zizza".

> The German word is cognate with English (and Dutch) _tit_ 'teat',
> and Spanish, Provençal _teta_ and French _tette_. I can't account
> for the "â" of "TâTã".

DEX and most authors relate it to a Latin "*tit[t]ia". Also to be
noted Basque "titia", Estonian "tis", meaning 'female breast'. Most
probably, the word was originally onomatopoeic [children language].

Regards,
Marius Iacomi