Re: alb. gji (breast) - maybe PIE *sei-N-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> m_iacomi wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, right. See the expression "a scuipa în sân", equally

valid for

> > men and women, in which "sân" means `bosom`.
>
> Keep your expresion in mind. We will comme on it. For me :
> breast= piept, sân
> bosom, tit= TâTã; as educated person, one will use "sân" for

female's

> teat.
>
> >
> >> a meaning of the "educated" society which felt the word "TâTã"

as

> >> vulgare, thus they prefered using "sân".
> >
> > "TâTã" means `breast`, not `bosom`.
>
> TâTã means "teat", the organ wherefrom come milk. Nothing more.

And this

> is for women or female animals the same word. The absolutely only

word

> for the place wherefrom the milk come.

> sân= cf DEX
> 1) each one of the both mamels of the woman.; breast.

It's supposed to have been a Latin usage, but I could find no
evidence of such a meaning in the Persues on-line dictionary
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=la>. It's
most definitely not the usual Classical Latin word for the female
breast. It looks like a (Western) Romance development, and thus to
be expected in Late Latin.

> 2) the chest

> 3) part of the chemise ; the space betwen breast and chemise where

one

> can keep something

In Latin: 'The hanging fold of the upper part of the toga, about the
breast, the bosom of a garment; also the bosom of a person;
sometimes also the lap (= gremium, the predom. class. signif.; esp.
freq. in a trop. sense).' - Charles & Short.

> 4) the part of the trawl as a pocket where are collected the

fishes.

In Latin: 'the bag of a fishing-net'; 'a hunter's net'; 'a spider's
web' - Charles & Short.

> 5) the place where is developing and is kept the foetus (uterus)

I did find this sense in my wonderings through Charles & Short at
Perseus, but I can't find it again.

> 6) breast, heart ( thought to be the place of the sentiments)

In Latin: 'The bosom, as in most other languages, for love,
protection, asylum, etc. (usu. in the phrases in sinu esse, habere,
etc.; syn. gremium' - Charles & Short.

> 7) the midle of the earth; the midle of something.

In Latin: 'The interior, the inmost part of a thing: alii intra
moenia atque in sinu urbis sunt hostes,in the midst, in the heart of
the city, Sall. C. 52, 35 : in urbe ac sinu cavendum hostem, Tac. H.
3, 38 ; Sil. 4, 34; 6, 652; Claud. Eutr. 2, 575: ut (hostis) fronte
simul et sinu exciperetur,in the centre, Tac. A. 13, 40 : in intimo
sinu pacis,i. e. in the midst of a profound peace, Plin. Pan. 56, 4'
- Charles & Short.

> 8) reg. and old, geogrphical = gulf

In Latin: 'A bay, bight, gulf' - Charles & Short.

>
> Now expresions which i will translate mot a mot and I will give the
> meaning of these expresions, why they are used.
>
> a scuipa in sân = to spit in and breast ( place between chemise and
> breast)
> Meaning: to avoid happening something bad you have to spite this

way.

> Superstions of the folk.
>
> a fi cu crucea în sân= to be with the cross in the breast ( too,

place

> between chemise and breast)
> Meaning: to have fear of god, to be a god christ but too , the

same one

> is to be hypocrite.
>
> a trâi ca in sânul lui Avram= to live like in the breast of

Abraham.

> Meaning: to have a very good life. I am not aware of the story with
> Abraham and why one should live god there:-)
>
> a trece un sarpe prin sân: to cross a snake in breast
> Meaning: to have fear, to have felt the fear as a snake in the

breast.

>
> s-a dus la sânul pãmântului: is gone to the breast of the earth.
> Meaning: to go until the midle of the earth.
>
> a Tine un Sarpe la sân: to kep a snake at the breast
> Meaning: to help someone which later will make you something bad.
>
>
> On the basis of the meanings and in the expresions which are used,

it

> seems there is no connection with the female teat, but the word

have

> meant something like a space where to put/keep something; the

sence of

> "female bosom" appears to be the very last one and I wonder if

this is

> not a semantical "import" due french or italian because no

expresion

> used by folk is related to meaning female's teat.


> Now, speaking about sân, the usualy meaning is the one of the place
> between chemise and breast ( no. 3 cf. DEX). None can say "ma

doare in

> sân" for meanig he has aches in the breast, but he will say " ma

doare

> in piept". A educated female when going to the doc will use "sân"

for

> her tit, a peasant will use "TâTã". The word "TâTã" remain

absolutely

> the only one which is used when refering to the place wherefrom

the milk

> comme on the natural way.

Basically, the senses Alex regards as learned imports are those
which do *not* occur in Classical Latin. Semantically, there is no
problem in linking Classical Latin _sinus_ and peasant Romanian
_sân_.

"TâTã" is mildly curious. It appears to be a loan from German
_Zitze_ 'udder', as does Italian _zizza_ (not in my dictionary).
The German word is cognate with English (and Dutch) _tit_ 'teat',
and Spanish, Provençal _teta_ and French _tette_. I can't account
for the "â" of "TâTã".

Richard.