Re: Enclosed Places

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> >
> > How far back we can push the loan into Balto-Slavonic?

Presumably

> it could
> > go back to before the break-up of Satem. In which case, could

the

> Albanian
> > form _garth_ 'hedge' be inherited from Common Satem? Pokorny

does

> propose
> > Indo-Iranian cognates, viz. Sanskrit gr.ha- 'house' and Avestan
> g&r&a- m.
> > 'cave (as some sort of dwelling)'. Moreover, I don't recall

anyone

> > contradicting Sergei when he said, Albanian _garth_ is a native
> word (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/14192 ). Is there
> any reason
> > that this (or its Dacian cognate) need not be the source of the
> Romanian
> > word?
> >
> I wonder what happens when I throw Semitic q-r-t "enclosed place"
> into this melée?

Massive loss of interest? But I suppose Hebrew qirya: 'city' offers
an interesting parallel. (I'd better check it - I only remember it
in the construct form, qiryat.) Do you want Hebrew 3i:r 'city' as
well? ('3' = ayin.)

> Møller in his juxtaposition of Semitic and
> IndoEuropean roots deals sytematically with an IE dh/t etc
> alternation (that should take care of _hortus_) and perhaps that
> alternation, or perhaps the general tone of dissatisfaction of this
> discussion should taken as a sign that this is a loan.

Which is what Piotr's been saying all along, but thinking in more
parochial terms, such as Germanic > Slavonic, for which the phonetics
fit quite well.

> More generally, it seems to be composed of the *k-r- (*kW-l, *g-l-
> etc etc) root (see Bomhard for a flood of these "turn, wrap,

rotate"

> roots, another sign it was borrowed) plus a passive participle
> forming *-t- or -dH-, thus "something that has been encircled" (cf
> Latin cardo "axis"; cor, cordis "heart (center of the body)".

Yep, Pokorny relates both Latin hortus 'garden', PIE
*g'Herdh 'enclosure' and Pre-Slavonic *gHerdH 'enclosure' to PIE
*g'her (no. 4) 'enclose', Root #658.

What's this past participle in -dH-?

Richard.

>
> Torsten