[tied] Re: "vatër" vs "vatra"; "veter-" vs "batran"

In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" wrote:

>>>> [vetulus >] veclus > vechi= old for inanimate
>>>> vetulus > vãtui = old for animate.
>>>
>>> Are you sure it is not vitellus > vatui? I don't
>>> have the dictionary at hand (until tomorrow).
>>
>> Hehe, of course the last one is Alex' invention, both in meaning
>> and probable origin. The real meaning is _not_ `old for animate`
>> but `baby animal (goat, lamb, calf, rabbit) up to one year old`
>> (also `[young deer] leather`). Its etymologic ancestor is Latin
>> "*vituleus" < "vitulus" (`calf`).
>
> hehe.. of course you are showing a deep ignorance here. In
> Prahova "mai vãtui" is still means a guy which is older.

Are you really sure?! I'll check this. I don't want to find out
that it designs a younger guy and you didn't had a memory fresh-up.

> you are right in what you say as "vãtui"= baby goat or baby rabbit

`baby animal` in general. Forget about that useless "=", it is
the most misleading sign you could use.

> but you are wrong when you speak about "calb"="vãtui".
> ( NEVER CALB;for calb you have MÂNZAT).

So what? Existence of a word for designing a `one-year-old-calb`
doesn't exclude using for `baby animal` the word "vãtui".

> Now beside the meaning, you (you= adepts of these pseudolatin
> words) are as usual blowing up the latin word. Let us make from
> "vitulus" an *vituleus for allowing the Rom. "vãtui".
> Since in Albanian is the root "vet-" the easiness of acceptance
> "vãtui" < latin *vetuleus is more as susspect.

Not being able to spell a word, you should use copy/paste (compare
*vituleus with *vetuleus and judge by yourself). Since we have in
Aromanian "vitul'u" (meaning `one year old baby goat`) and in
Meglenoromanian "vitul'/vitui" (meaning `young baby goat`), one
can safely infer that there was originally a word with palatalized
/l'/ and with meaning related to `young animal`, not to `old(er)`,
in Common Romanian. That rules out your "regional meaning" (which
I'll surely check out); also the second meaning (`leather`) points
out clearly reference to young, not old animals.

> The fact the word is not related to any "calb" since for calb
> there is mânzat, [...]

That's Alex "reasoning". In fact, a specialized word can make
another one with overlapping semantism to change its meaning.
That is: concurrence between "*mãndzatu" and "*vãtul'u" (probable
Common Romanian forms) caused the semantic drift of the latter.
Of course, existence of a word for `one-year-old-calb` has no
probing relevance in which concerns relationship of another word
with `calb`.

> So there is no basis for making any connection between vãtui
> and "vitulus" but a more stronger basis for "vãtui" with "vetus"

According to meanings and phonetism, that's simply false.

> In the same manner is to make the corelation with Alb "vjet"

OK, up to infirmation of your alleged "regional meaning", people
of Prahova are Albanian-related. :-)

>>>> Here, as in "vita/viata", "vitelus/viTel" is allways
>>>> a small difference, but enough for not allowing these
>>>> words to derive from Latin.
>>
>> Obviously, that's only for Alex who still doesn't realize
>> that differences between long/short (-> stressed/unstressed)
>> Latin vowels lead to different phonetical histories. This
>> list (and not only) contains full discussions of this word
>> which should have been more than enough.
>
> Mr Iacomi it seems you missed the whole discution here otherways
> you won't say a such nonsense. There is no "vitel" from "vitelus"
> and that not because of "T" and there is no "viaTa" from "vita".
> I don't guess there is any need to re-debate it.

Of course there is no "vitelus" > "viTel". See for reference the
message you missed a long time ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18761
Also check:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21939
There is indeed no need to spread confused nonsense on the list.
There is no need to fight against supposed etymologies invented
by yourself and attributed to others. The remaining part is just
willful ignoring of what has already been said on this list: it
would be very nice if you'd eliminate it from your posts.

Marius Iacomi