Re: Ban

----- Original Message -----
From: tolgs001
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003
Subject: [tied] Re: Ban_Pan [cardinal points]
...
So, what kind of word is "ban"? Turkic (Avar
or Protobulgarian)? Or Slavic? (I guess that
Hungarians either borrowed it from the
South Slavs or from the... Turkish language
of the ruling class of the incipient Hungarian
nation - 8th-9th centuries.)
George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In 1796, LEHÓCZKY/LEHOCZKY/LEHOTZKY/LEHOTSKÝ[Lehortzky?], András/Andreas
[15.09.1741, Pozsony; 23.04.1813, Pozsony] wrote in his "Inclyti Regni
Hungariae et Partium Eidem annexarum et Ordinum, seu Stemmatographia
nobilium familiarum regni Hungariae", vol. I-II, Posonii (=Pozsony,
Bratislava, Bratislaviae, Breslavia, Wroclaw, Pressburg, Pozsony), 1796-'98]
about BAN:
"Derivatur nomen a PAN, quod dominum slavis significant;
alii a BOJAN (contracte: b a n), quod formidandum denotat;
alii a BANNO, seu vexillo derivant, etc."
and these are/remained the 3 main theories regarding this word [in more than
200 years the problem is still not solved :-) ].

Now, the Bojan/Bajan theory [implying an avar/persian ancestry] is not
possible because:
1. the BOJAN word/adjective is still present today in Croatian language [as
BAJAN] with the meaning of: charming, pleasing illustrious, rich, beautiful,
extraordinary, etc. and has nothing to do with an administrative title.
2. the BOJAN_ban contraction is not possible.
3. other strong historical & linguistic/Hesychius arguments.
4. the "Slovak experience".

The PAN theory is not possible because the Croats do not have the word PAN
in their vocabulary and here, among the Croats, we will find the first
BAN_BANAT(E)_BANOVINA in the X century/ie 945 [when the Turks are still far,
but very far a way from Europe!].
The rest of the western Balkans/SE Europe's banate [7-8 of them] are only
copies of the Croat one made by the Medieval Hungarian Kingdom after
1102/Pacta Conventa [including a Vidin (=bodon/bodony) or bulgár bánság
between April/Mai 1365-September 1369!].

So, it rests only the third possibility: BANNO with roots in the Carolingian
Empire where the meanings of BAN are:
1] A King's power to command and prohibit under pain of punishment or death,
mainly used because of a break in the King's Peace. Also a royal
proclamation, either of a call to arms, or a decree of outlawry. In clerical
terms, an excommunication on condemnation by the church [see at DUBY,
Georges, "Rural Economy and Country Life in the Medieval West". Translation
by Cynthia Postan, Columbia, SC: University of South Carolina Press, 1968,
page 554-555]
2] Power originally wielded by the king, but later assumed by counts and
castellans [ie governor/captain of a castle] to exploit men and levy dues
and services in return for protection. Hence ban inférieur, seigneurie
banale, etc. [see at DUBY, Georges, "Rural Economy and Country Life in the
Medieval West". Translation by Cynthia Postan, Columbia, SC: University of
South Carolina Press, 1968, page 554]

Now, these franks are a germanic people which use B where in Old-High-German
is used P. This is why I asked about the etymology of PAN in N Slavic
languages.

More, it seams that we find administrative regions and rulers [of these
regions] with this name/caring the title BAN only where the Carolingian
Empire was in close contact [ruled] with the Slavic world [as well as in the
case of N, S or center Slavs]. If one of the elements of this binomial
relation [Frank_Slav] is missing, we do not have this phenomena [of rulers
named BAN].

So, I think that BAN is linked more likely with the
carolingian_frank_Proto-Germanic BANNAN ["proclaim, command, forbid"] and
from here is only one step to the Proto-Indo-European root/lemma: BHA:-2
with the meaning "to speak".

Waiting for criticisms,

S o r i n