Re: [tied] Was proto-romance a pidgin?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:14:31 +0200, alex_lycos <altamix@...>
wrote:

>Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
>>
>> The forms used with the future are derived from Vulgar Latin vole:re
>> (vole:o, vole:s, volet, vole:mus, vole:tis, volent) and Classical
>> Latin velle (volo, vi:s, vult, volumus, vultis, volunt; subj. velim,
>> veli:s, velit, veli:mus, veli:tis, velint)
>
>Which is very recognoscible in italian "voleo", Frenach "veux" and how
>you point out in Romanian " a voi".
>
>> 1sg. voi, voiu is from *vol^u < voleo
>> 2sg. vei, veri is from the present subjunctive veli:s
>> 3sg. va, voa, voare is from volet
>
>1 sg. "voiu" is the obsolet form,

Yes, the older form.

>2 sg. "veri" there is no "veri" as pronoun just substantiv " vãr=
>cousin, veri= cousins)

No: veri is attested in Old Romanian (17th c.). It is the older form.

>3 sg. "voa", "voare" are not existent in Romanian so far I am informed.

You're correct: Bourciez gives them as *voa, *voare,

>This is why I won't try to find any directe derivatves from Latin since
>for plural is allway an "-ãm/em", "-aTi/eTi". And for singular , here is
>the most interesting of all. Which is the time when the people derived
>with "-ez" ( is this an old -es?) and which is the time when people
>begun to conjugate with the 0-grade root. The conjugation with "-esc" is
>still alive since every foreign verb can be rumanised with the help of
>"-esc".

The Latin inchoative in -e:sco replaced the standard conjugation of
most verbs in -i:re in much of Romance, except for the most common
ones. The phenomenon appears in e.g. Catalan (patir: pateixo,
pateixes, pateix, patim, patiu, pateixen), Italian (capire: capisco,
capisci, capisce, capiamo, capite, capiscono) just as in Romanian.

The Greek suffix -izein (> -izare, -idiare) also became immensely
popular in the Romance languages. In Spanish, just about every
foreign verb can be hispanized by using the suffix -ear < -izare.
Same in Catalan (-ejar), French (-iser), etc.

>For conjuctive I don't understand the form ob the verb at the pers III
>sg.
>1 sg. sa am
>2 sg. sa ai
>3 sg. sa aibã or "sa aibe" but never " sã aive"

Cf. Italian abbia < habeat. The /b/ strengthened before yod. In
Romanian, ab(b)ya > ayba with metathesis.

>>> there is
>>> an another genitive ( supposed to have been made in a later time)
>>
>> What other genitive?
>
>1) nominative end in /-a/, /-ã/, /-e/ , genitive end in /-i/
>2) that form of genitive with "la" . Literary form "Saua calului"= the
>saddle of the horse, in the folks mouth " Saua la cal". "Ai dat de
>mancare cal[ului] ? " , in folksmouth Ai dat de mancare la cal?"

These constructions are more in line with those in the other Romance
languages (Fr. Le livre à moi, Cat. Has donat de menjar al cavall?).
Cf. also the parallel creation an animate "accusative" in Spanish (veo
a Pedro) and Romanian (vãd pe Petru).

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...