From: tgpedersen
Message: 20395
Date: 2003-03-27
>Popper would be sad to hear to hear this.
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > GK: /.../it seems useless to continue
> > > discussing this issue with you, Torsten. You have,
> > > unfortunately, what seems to be some sort of
> > religious
> > > obsession with Snorri's account(s). Or, in modern
> > > parlance, an ideological obsession. You will never
> > > accept anything as constituting disproof of your
> > idee
> > > fixe. You will come back to it again and again,
> > with
> > > the same arguments. Take your last point. If I say
> > (as
> > > I have already many times) that there is no
> > evidence
> > > to indicate that migrants from the Bosporan
> > Kingdom
> > > (or Asaland or whatever) settled in Bastarnia, or
> > > Thuringia or wherever in the time frame you have
> > > selected, you will respond that they left no
> > traces,
> > > or that they changed culture, or anything at all
> > it
> > > seems.
>
> > (T)Excuse me? I said it's difficult to prove someone
> > emigrated from a
> > place. The you go on about places people might have
> > immigrated to.
>
> *****GK: Archaeology has proved most conclusively that
> certain elements of the historical Cimmerians, and
> subsequently certain elements of the early Scythians,
> emigrated from Southern Siberia. There is no evidence
> that "Thuringians" of the 1rst c. BC or AD emigrated
> from the area Snorri calls "Asaland" (or from the
> Bosporan Kingdom or from Asia Minor for that
> matter).*****
> >
> > >Once a hypothesis has been shown to have no
> > > viable scientific basis, it should properly be
> > > dismissed. Your unwillingness to do so betrays
> > > unscientific motivations.
> >Don't twist my words. I said you hadn't answered this particular
> > I asked you a question. I you don't want to answer
> > it, fine.
>
> *****GK: Don't be silly. Your questions have been
> answered repeatedly.*****
> (T)As for ideological obsession with Snorri: I'mThe alternative explanation is that they both refer to factual events.
> > Danish, this is
> > supposedly part of the history of my country, so
> > what do you expect?
>
> *****GK: The same attitude as Ukrainian (and other
> Slavic) scientists have towards the Nestor account of
> Slavic origins on the Danube. If you read this passage
> of the Kyivan Primary Chronicle, you will see some
> very interesting parallels between Snorri's tale of
> Odin migrating from "Asaland" to Scandinavia
> (eventually) and e.g. Poles migrating from the Danube
> to Poland. Sometimes I wonder if he used this source.
> It was certainly available to him (if only via
> Novgorod).*****
> > (T)And if this is ideological, how would you thenObvously the rascal peppered his tissue of lies with truths.
> > characterize your own
> > refusal to even consider it?
>
> ******GK: When there is no evidence to back up a
> hypothesis, one dismisses it. Your view has been
> considered (ad nauseam), found to be unprovable by any
> acceptable criteria of science, and consequently
> dismissed. If you wish to maintain it as an article of
> faith, that is your affair of course.******
> > > >
> >
> > > > >There is in any case a major contradiction in
> > > > > the accounts of the Snorra Edda and of the
> > > > > Heimskringla [Odin from a "misunderstood"
> > Bosporus
> > > > vs.
> > > > > Odin from "Asaland"] which is reminiscent, in
> > a
> > > > way,
> > > > > of other contradictions in Snorri's
> > genealogies.
> > >
> > > >(T) True, but Ynglingatal claims he had
> > possessions
> > > both
> > > > places.
> > >
> > > GK: There is no historical record of anyone
> > > having large possessions in both Asia Minor and
> > > "Asaland" in 50 BC. So the claim is spurious. We
> > might
> > > surmise that this is Snorri's attempt to reconcile
> > two
> > > incompatible versions: the Troy Legend and the
> > Asaland
> > > hypothesis. Having opted for the latter, he keeps
> > the
> > > former in the mention of Odin's "possessions" in
> > > Tyrkland.
> > > >
> > (T)Exactly. I agree.
>
> *****GK: The fact that Snorri opted for one version
> over another does not make either of them
> scientifically acceptable.******
> >
> > > > >These
> > > > > contradictions don't really matter in the
> > context
> > > > of
> > > > > real history. And you can't legitimately
> > combine
> > > > > elements of the two, esp. as to directions.
> > > > (T)Yes, but I was wondering about Trittenheim's
> > > > sources.
> > >
> > > GK: You have yet to refute the contention
> > that
> > > 'Hunibald' was a forgery.*****
> >(T) This is what I know of the 'Hunibald' affair. The
> > emperor demanded to
> > see Trithemius' sources. Trithemius claimed they had
> > been destroyed
> > in a fire. After that everyone assumed Trithemius
> > lied. But does this
> > constitute proof that Trithemius used _no_ genuine
> > sources? If that
> > were the case, where does his 'Wechtam' come from?
>
> *****GK: I'm not sure anyone agrees with your reading
> of this term. But even if you're right, we don't have
> to assume he got it from some source such as you
> suppose. There were Armenian scholars in the West in
> his time, who could have been familiar with Caucasian
> (incl. Georgian) matters. Tritheim could have had
> conversations with them, picked up terms and stories,
> and eventually used some of these disparate elements
> to pad his "Hunibald".******
> >Torsten
> > > >
> > > > >The story
> > > > > of "Odin" simply makes no sense whatever the
> > > > source.
> > > > > There are too many discoordinated variables.
> > > > Including
> > > > > the existence of yet a third Bosporus (or
> > > > > "Ellipaltar") in classic Norse times: the
> > > > connection
> > > > > between the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga via the
> > > > Neva to
> > > > > the important Norse colonies of Old Ladoga and
> > > > > Holmgardr.
> > > >
> > > > Please enlighten me on "Ellipaltar", that
> > > > discoordinated variable.
> > >
> > > GK: You can start with the mention in
> > > Heimskringla. It is also Saxo's "Hellespont".
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >(T) But as regards the "north, then west"
> > > > > direction,
> > > > > > cf
> > > > > > > > this abstract
> > > > > > > > from "Hunibald":/etc../
> > > > > > > GK: What do these incredible stupidities
> > > > > > have to
> > > > > > > do with historical science?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >(T) The issue was where the "north, then
> > west"
> > > > came
> > > > > from
> > > > > > in Snorri. He
> > > > > > and Trittenheim might have used similar
> > sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > GK: The numbers of "Hunibald" are very
> > > > > reminiscent of the approach of Exodus.
> > > > (T)True, which are ascribed to later redactors,
> > thus
> > > > logically secondary.
> > >
> > > GK: You have yet to demonstrate that there
> > were
> > > other than "secondary redactors" so to speak
> > > (:=))))
> > > >