Re: [tied] Re: Germanic Scythians?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > GK: /.../it seems useless to continue
> > discussing this issue with you, Torsten. You have,
> > unfortunately, what seems to be some sort of
> religious
> > obsession with Snorri's account(s). Or, in modern
> > parlance, an ideological obsession. You will never
> > accept anything as constituting disproof of your
> idee
> > fixe. You will come back to it again and again,
> with
> > the same arguments. Take your last point. If I say
> (as
> > I have already many times) that there is no
> evidence
> > to indicate that migrants from the Bosporan
> Kingdom
> > (or Asaland or whatever) settled in Bastarnia, or
> > Thuringia or wherever in the time frame you have
> > selected, you will respond that they left no
> traces,
> > or that they changed culture, or anything at all
> it
> > seems.

> (T)Excuse me? I said it's difficult to prove someone
> emigrated from a
> place. The you go on about places people might have
> immigrated to.

*****GK: Archaeology has proved most conclusively that
certain elements of the historical Cimmerians, and
subsequently certain elements of the early Scythians,
emigrated from Southern Siberia. There is no evidence
that "Thuringians" of the 1rst c. BC or AD emigrated
from the area Snorri calls "Asaland" (or from the
Bosporan Kingdom or from Asia Minor for that
matter).*****

>
> >Once a hypothesis has been shown to have no
> > viable scientific basis, it should properly be
> > dismissed. Your unwillingness to do so betrays
> > unscientific motivations.
>
> I asked you a question. I you don't want to answer
> it, fine.

*****GK: Don't be silly. Your questions have been
answered repeatedly.*****

>

(T)As for ideological obsession with Snorri: I'm

> Danish, this is
> supposedly part of the history of my country, so
> what do you expect?

*****GK: The same attitude as Ukrainian (and other
Slavic) scientists have towards the Nestor account of
Slavic origins on the Danube. If you read this passage
of the Kyivan Primary Chronicle, you will see some
very interesting parallels between Snorri's tale of
Odin migrating from "Asaland" to Scandinavia
(eventually) and e.g. Poles migrating from the Danube
to Poland. Sometimes I wonder if he used this source.
It was certainly available to him (if only via
Novgorod).*****

> (T)And if this is ideological, how would you then
> characterize your own
> refusal to even consider it?

******GK: When there is no evidence to back up a
hypothesis, one dismisses it. Your view has been
considered (ad nauseam), found to be unprovable by any
acceptable criteria of science, and consequently
dismissed. If you wish to maintain it as an article of
faith, that is your affair of course.******

> > >
>
> > > >There is in any case a major contradiction in
> > > > the accounts of the Snorra Edda and of the
> > > > Heimskringla [Odin from a "misunderstood"
> Bosporus
> > > vs.
> > > > Odin from "Asaland"] which is reminiscent, in
> a
> > > way,
> > > > of other contradictions in Snorri's
> genealogies.
> >
> > >(T) True, but Ynglingatal claims he had
> possessions
> > both
> > > places.
> >
> > GK: There is no historical record of anyone
> > having large possessions in both Asia Minor and
> > "Asaland" in 50 BC. So the claim is spurious. We
> might
> > surmise that this is Snorri's attempt to reconcile
> two
> > incompatible versions: the Troy Legend and the
> Asaland
> > hypothesis. Having opted for the latter, he keeps
> the
> > former in the mention of Odin's "possessions" in
> > Tyrkland.
> > >
> (T)Exactly. I agree.

*****GK: The fact that Snorri opted for one version
over another does not make either of them
scientifically acceptable.******

>
> > > >These
> > > > contradictions don't really matter in the
> context
> > > of
> > > > real history. And you can't legitimately
> combine
> > > > elements of the two, esp. as to directions.
> > > (T)Yes, but I was wondering about Trittenheim's
> > > sources.
> >
> > GK: You have yet to refute the contention
> that
> > 'Hunibald' was a forgery.*****
>(T) This is what I know of the 'Hunibald' affair. The
> emperor demanded to
> see Trithemius' sources. Trithemius claimed they had
> been destroyed
> in a fire. After that everyone assumed Trithemius
> lied. But does this
> constitute proof that Trithemius used _no_ genuine
> sources? If that
> were the case, where does his 'Wechtam' come from?

*****GK: I'm not sure anyone agrees with your reading
of this term. But even if you're right, we don't have
to assume he got it from some source such as you
suppose. There were Armenian scholars in the West in
his time, who could have been familiar with Caucasian
(incl. Georgian) matters. Tritheim could have had
conversations with them, picked up terms and stories,
and eventually used some of these disparate elements
to pad his "Hunibald".******

>
> > >
> > > >The story
> > > > of "Odin" simply makes no sense whatever the
> > > source.
> > > > There are too many discoordinated variables.
> > > Including
> > > > the existence of yet a third Bosporus (or
> > > > "Ellipaltar") in classic Norse times: the
> > > connection
> > > > between the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga via the
> > > Neva to
> > > > the important Norse colonies of Old Ladoga and
> > > > Holmgardr.
> > >
> > > Please enlighten me on "Ellipaltar", that
> > > discoordinated variable.
> >
> > GK: You can start with the mention in
> > Heimskringla. It is also Saxo's "Hellespont".
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >(T) But as regards the "north, then west"
> > > > direction,
> > > > > cf
> > > > > > > this abstract
> > > > > > > from "Hunibald":/etc../
> > > > > > GK: What do these incredible stupidities
> > > > > have to
> > > > > > do with historical science?
> > > > > >
> > > > >(T) The issue was where the "north, then
> west"
> > > came
> > > > from
> > > > > in Snorri. He
> > > > > and Trittenheim might have used similar
> sources.
> > > >
> > > > GK: The numbers of "Hunibald" are very
> > > > reminiscent of the approach of Exodus.
> > > (T)True, which are ascribed to later redactors,
> thus
> > > logically secondary.
> >
> > GK: You have yet to demonstrate that there
> were
> > other than "secondary redactors" so to speak
> > (:=))))
> > >
> Torsten
>
>
>

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