Re: [tied] Re: Germanic Scythians?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > > Those that comment Snorri and Saxo (who also
> places
> > > the "Odin the
> > > man" in Byzantium) when trying to explain how
> these
> > > sources are using
> > > each other's material assume (just one theory)
> that
> > > when the authors
> > > place "Odin" there, their source may have
> contained
> > > a reference
> > > to "Bosporus" in the sense of "Cimmerian
> Bosporus",
> > > which the authors
> > > have then misunderstood as referring to the
> "real"
> > > Bosporus.
> >
> > GK: The problem here is that the Cimmerian
> > Bosporus points to the Bosporan Kingdom, and not
> to
> > "Asaland" or "Vanaland". We can dismiss any
> adaptation
> > of the Troy Legend to Nordic history as
> imaginative,
> > of course, but we certainly have no evidence about
> the
> > possibility of using Panticapaeum as an alternate
> > "Troy".
> (T)I think this means there's no room in Bospoan

Kindom

> history for such
> an event. Care to elucidate? Emigrations, unlike
> immigrations, are
> hard to document archaeologically.

******GK: This is why it seems useless to continue
discussing this issue with you, Torsten. You have,
unfortunately, what seems to be some sort of religious
obsession with Snorri's account(s). Or, in modern
parlance, an ideological obsession. You will never
accept anything as constituting disproof of your idee
fixe. You will come back to it again and again, with
the same arguments. Take your last point. If I say (as
I have already many times) that there is no evidence
to indicate that migrants from the Bosporan Kingdom
(or Asaland or whatever) settled in Bastarnia, or
Thuringia or wherever in the time frame you have
selected, you will respond that they left no traces,
or that they changed culture, or anything at all it
seems. Once a hypothesis has been shown to have no
viable scientific basis, it should properly be
dismissed. Your unwillingness to do so betrays
unscientific motivations.******

>
> >There is in any case a major contradiction in
> > the accounts of the Snorra Edda and of the
> > Heimskringla [Odin from a "misunderstood" Bosporus
> vs.
> > Odin from "Asaland"] which is reminiscent, in a
> way,
> > of other contradictions in Snorri's genealogies.

>(T) True, but Ynglingatal claims he had possessions

both

> places.

******GK: There is no historical record of anyone
having large possessions in both Asia Minor and
"Asaland" in 50 BC. So the claim is spurious. We might
surmise that this is Snorri's attempt to reconcile two
incompatible versions: the Troy Legend and the Asaland
hypothesis. Having opted for the latter, he keeps the
former in the mention of Odin's "possessions" in
Tyrkland.******

>
> >These
> > contradictions don't really matter in the context
> of
> > real history. And you can't legitimately combine
> > elements of the two, esp. as to directions.
> (T)Yes, but I was wondering about Trittenheim's
> sources.

******GK: You have yet to refute the contention that
'Hunibald' was a forgery.*****

>
> >The story
> > of "Odin" simply makes no sense whatever the
> source.
> > There are too many discoordinated variables.
> Including
> > the existence of yet a third Bosporus (or
> > "Ellipaltar") in classic Norse times: the
> connection
> > between the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga via the
> Neva to
> > the important Norse colonies of Old Ladoga and
> > Holmgardr.*******
>
> Please enlighten me on "Ellipaltar", that
> discoordinated variable.

******GK: You can start with the mention in
Heimskringla. It is also Saxo's "Hellespont".*****

>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >(T) But as regards the "north, then west"
> > direction,
> > > cf
> > > > > this abstract
> > > > > from "Hunibald":/etc../
> > > > GK: What do these incredible stupidities
> > > have to
> > > > do with historical science?
> > > >
> > >(T) The issue was where the "north, then west"
> came
> > from
> > > in Snorri. He
> > > and Trittenheim might have used similar sources.
> >
> > GK: The numbers of "Hunibald" are very
> > reminiscent of the approach of Exodus.
> (T)True, which are ascribed to later redactors, thus
> logically secondary.

*****GK: You have yet to demonstrate that there were
other than "secondary redactors" so to speak
(:=))))*****

>
> >That would
> > certainly have been a plausible source to imitate.
> > Tritheim didn't need to consult ancient sources to
> > know that the Danube was south of Germany.
> Erh ,OK.
>
> >As to
> > Snorri's "north then west" the source would have
> been
> > the trek from the Caspian to the Baltic, well
> known
> > for centuries before him.
>
> The question is, what route would earlier
> Germanic-speakers take,
> before the arrival of the Slavs? Why did the Sciri
> and Bastarneans
> settle on the continental divide between two river
> systems if they
> weren't involved in trade (and note the "pack
> saddle" etc
> connotatations of 'bast-')?

******GK: So it's back to the Bastarneans is it?
Q.E.D. (:=)))))))))********

>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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