Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?

Dear Miguel:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?


> On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:43:05 +0000, "Glen Gordon"
> <glengordon01@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >Miguel:
> >>You forgot to quote the sentence immediately preceding:
> >>
> >>"It is only in intervocalic position that the voiced stops are
> >>fully voiced [...]
> >
> >It's irrelevant! The text's talking about /d/ in terms of "full
> >voicing" or "partial voicing", not "absence of voicing".
>
> What part of that sentence do you not understand?
>
> Let me rephrase it: "The voiced stops are not fully voiced, unless in
> intervocalic position (*)".
>
> >wasn't even talking about "pre-voicing" (??!).
>
> I thought at least Pat had made a comment about voice onset coming
> before the closure in initial voiced stops.
>
> >A voiceless /d/ is one where the voice does not occur during the
> >entire time it takes to implement the phoneme.
>
> And a voiced /d/ is one where the voice occurs during the entire time
> it takes to implement the phoneme.

[PCR]
First off, what language has a "voiceless /d/" and how would it contrast with a "voiceless /t/"?

Secondly, why is it justified to term a stop voiced only if "voice occurs during the entire time ..."? The linguists you are quoting make a careful distinction between "full" and "partial" voicing. Why is that not possible for you?

>
> (*) And the UCLA data show that even that's not entirely accurate for
> many speakers of AE, who make all the appropriate gestures for voicing
> the stop between voiced sounds, except for actually vibrating the
> vocal chords.

[PCR]
Your "many" is awfully vague. How many speakers of America English actually do this?

Pat

PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)