Re: [tied] Re: yellow

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 18061
Date: 2003-01-25

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:14:23 +0100, "alex_lycos" <altamix@...>

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <aquila_grande@...>
>To: <>
>Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:00 AM
>Subject: [tied] Re: yellow
>> > OK, but why from acusativ form ? It is not logicaly to derive from
>> > nominative?
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Historiccally this is not quite correct. In an inerrime periode all
>> cases exept the nominative had merged into one - casus obliquus.
>> Formally this often resembled the latin ablative in singular, and
>> accusative in plural
>It is possible to know in which periode of time did this happen?

The tendency to lose final -m and -s is very old in Latin (as
demonstrated by the syllabification rules of verse). In the end, -s
was fully restored in the West, but disappeared in the East. -m was
lost everywhere. Of the old Latin noun classes, the u-stems and
e:-stems were lost, and only the a:-stems, o-stems and i-/C-stems
remain in Romance. Of the cases, the vocative was lost, and the
genitive and dative tended to be replaced by propositional
constructions (Gen > de: + Abl., Dat > ad + Acc.). In the West, this
should have resulted in:

Nom -a -os, -o -e
Acc -a -o -e
Abl -a -o -e
Nom -e -i, -a -es
Acc -as -os -es
Abl -is -is -ebos

This gave a system with two cases, as in Old French or Old Occitan: a
nominative ending in -a, -os, -e, pl. -e, -i, -es and an oblique
ending in -a, -o, -e, pl. -as, -os, -es (the system as attested in Old
French or Occitan has been further simplified). Old French still
retains traces of the old (-orum > -oro > -o:r). In all
modern Western Romance languages, the nominative case has been given
up, and only the oblique remains (e.g. Spa. -a, -o, -e, pl. -as, -os,

In the East, the loss of -s resulted in:
Nom -a -o/-u -e
Acc -a -o/-u -e
Abl -a -o/-u -e
Nom -e -i, -a -e
Acc -a -o/-u -e
Abl -i -i -ebo/-ebu

With loss of all case distinctions, as in the singular, this gives the
system as attested in Italian (-a, -o, -e, pl. -e, -i, -i). Romanian
is similar (-a~, -(u), -e, pl. -e, -i, -i), but has retained the old
feminine Dative (-e, -i) in the singular, as well as the singular
Dative and plural Genitive in the article (-lui, -(le)i; -lor).

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal