Re: [tied] again gW>b and getae

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 16784
Date: 2002-11-16

Who told you that any of these names derives from a protoform with *kW? Almost all of them seem to contain the root *{h2ep-} 'flowing water, river', which has PIE *p. This root, by the way, is best attested in three _Satem_ groups that never show /p/ for *kW: Indo-Aryan (OIA a:paH 'waters' < *h2op-es, dvi:pa- 'island' < *dwi-h2p-o-, etc.), Iranian (Av. a:fs^ < *h2o:p-s, etc.), and Baltic (OPr. ape). Latin and Celtic possibly have it in *h2ap-h(o)n- > *h2ab(o)n- 'river', and judging from the frequent occurrence of "ap-" hydronyms in the Balkan area, it was widespread in the ancient local languages as well. It should *not* be equated with Latin/Germanic *akWa:, which would not have produced such reflexes. If Iranian, Indo-Aryan and Baltic have *h2ap- and are Satem nevertheless, its presence in Thracian or Dacian surely does not suggest that they are not Satem.
Rom. apĆ£ could in theory continue Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian *apa: if such a form were attested (it is not, in fact; the Dacian word, for example, was apparently a reflex of *h2apos). However, the fact that it means just 'water' like Lat. aqua (not 'flowing water' or 'river' in particular), and that it is derivable from <aqua> via regular Romanian sound changes, compels us to regard it as a relative of <eau>, <agua>, <acqua> and other Romance 'water' words, not of <apos>.
Latin/Germanic *akWa:
----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] again gW>b and getae

> Avec plaisir, but show me your data first. Which particular
hydronyms exhibit this change?
> Piotr
In Dacia : Apus (Appion), Naparis, Aparus,
On the illirian coast: Apus, Zald-apa, Apila, Aponus, Apsus,
Col-apia, Met-apa.
It seems weird but in thrace ( south of Haemus) we do not find
such hidronimes.
The corespondence with "apa" is to find just in dacia, moesia
inferior, moesia superior, dalmatia, ilira, dardania.

Dacia. Apulon (Apulum, Apula), Capora(Cepora), Napoca(Napuca),
Ilirian coast:Apulia
Moesia Inferior: Appiara(Apiareia, Appiaria), Capidava,
The seem thing here, in Thrace south of Haemus are too, no
such kind of names.

if the groups kW and gW have in the same language separate
evolution kinda kw>k and gW>b then it seems the big
clasification centum/satem is not working properly or there
must be other explanation. Not only Vinereanu said that but
Cicerone Poghirc too.

And If we take a look at the neolitic population of balcans
and the greek substrate ( the so-called pelasgian) and the
toponimes and hidronimes of europe before the greeks, we learn
they belong to IE-languages.
That woul mean the IE spreaders must impused their language
before neolitic in Europe or, the neolitic people of Europa
spoked IE languages.