Re: [tied] Ulagh

From: alexmoeller@...
Message: 15983
Date: 2002-10-06

----- Original Message -----
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <piotr.gasiorowski@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Ulagh

----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 8:52 PM
Subject: [tied] Ulagh

> How is there the conenction of volcae, walah and
tartar/turcick "ulagh"? Does it mean the tartar or turcks got
the name from slavs too? Or from germans?

>From whoever was using the term Vlach (the South Slavic
version or anything derived from it) at the time.

> I keep in mind here the work of persan scholar Fäzl ol Lah
Räsid about the tartar invasion of 1241 Teh tartar name of
this is "Kara Ulagh"= black Walachia and from otoman sources
we know that the turkish name was Kara Iflack.

A language that cannot permit word-initial /vl-/ can make it
pronounceable either by vocalising the first consonant (/ul-/;
cf. Hungarial Oláh; perhaps the Tartars actually borrowed the
Hungarian word), or by using a prop vowel. Turkish speakers
resort to prothetic /i/ in such cases (cf. <isveç> 'Sweden').
/iflak/ was the nearest thing to /vlax/ under the restrictions
of Turkish phonology.


[Moeller] thank you Piotr. Historycaly it seems a bit dubious
that the tartar got the word from Hungarin, but maybe from
huns and as they turned back, the other assiatic people got
the word too.
the turks, well they must have got it from greek directly. But
at this time did the greek speak blacki or vlahi? Because then
there the language of turks seems to have more fonological
restrictions. "vl" and "bl" should be too verya dificult to