Re: [tied] just verifying a point

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 14925
Date: 2002-09-01

----- Original Message -----
From: alexmoeller@...
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] just verifying a point

> The problem with Esbenus , Outasbios, Aut-esbios is that we do not have a clue what they mean.
What makes you so cautious, all of a sudden? Do you mean that, by contrast, you know for sure what Eppo means? (By the way, please tell me where I can find Eppo attested as a Thracian name.) We have no Thracian dictionary and we can only make intelligent guesses as to the interpretation of onomastic elements. <esb-> recurs in Thracian personal names like <asp-> in Iranian ones, and since the Thracians, like the Iranians, had a reputation as horsemen, the equivalence of both elements makes a lot of sense, especially since other sound correspondences show that *w > b ([v]?) (as in Thr. bria < *wrijo-) and that Thracian was a Satem language (as in diza < *dHig^H-o-).
> The position of "s" before the labial makes the things more complicated. Pokorny rebuild the PIE-radical without "s" and he gives the labiovelare as palatal for explaining the forms from the satem languages (skt. asva, av. aspa, old lit. aSva, eSva) where the siflantes could come frome a palatal labial, and the short wovel "u"
became labio-dental "v" or labial "p". In this case the thracian antroponims cannot be explained from this radical.
What did Pokorny rebuild, and what things get "more complicated"? Have you got any idea what you're talking about? What did the fricatives come from? "A palatal labial"?? Do you know the meaning of the words you're using? The reconstruction *ek^wos has been in use since the nineteenth century and nobody since that time has reconstructed the PIE 'horse' word with anything else than *-k^w-. How does it follow that Thracian <esba-> cannot derive from *ek^wos?
> Thracian had no *kW> p rule? Why this? The example with Esbenus & Co does not help because we do not know what this mean and from which radical they comme
See above. As for *kW > p in Thracian, I don't know a single example to support such a change. It would also be without precedent in a Satem language.
> So far I know Salapia is in Romania not in Italy.
Salapia (cf. modern Lake Salpi) was a costal town in Italy, on the Gulf of Manfredonia. It's an area famous for its natural salinas, so Salapia makes perfect sense as 'the place of salty waters'. Where's the Romanian Salapia?
> What does inspire you to say that the dacian words are based on *ud?
Dacian and Thracian hydronyms like (Salmor-)ude, Uscu(dama) < *ud-sko-, Oskios < *ud-sk-ijo-, Utus < *ud- with the Thracian devoicing of *d, and last but not least Alb. ujë.