Re: [tied] barba, farfeche, bãiat

From: alexmoeller@...
Message: 14624
Date: 2002-08-27

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] barba, farfeche, bãiat

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:38:05 +0200, alexmoeller@... wrote:

>about barde:
>just in gallic

"Barda" in the sense of axe is a Germanic coinage.  AFAIK, it did not exist in
Continental Celtic, and neither is the same word in the sense of "beard"
attested in Continental Celtic.  From Germanic it spread into Slavic and Romance
(although Slavic brady ~ bradva suggests a Germanic source *bardo:, instead of
attested barda, does anyone know any more details?).
[Moeller] so in this case you suppose as fallow:
- the  germans made this word. The galloromanic got it from germans.( untill XV century we have the word attested in french)
- the romanians got it from somewhere ( it doesnt matter right now where from)
Untill here sounds OK to me too. But:
-the senses in the old french was the same as in romanian: a short ax, a long ax for fighting developing in this time some expresions " Ho, cã nu am dat cu barda" " I  didnt meant it so".
- the german lost that word. In german is known just Hallebarde which is a new word.( composed, of course )
These two points make me to think that is unlikely the whole supposition . If I take a look in the dictionary I will find:
" Mittelhochdeutsch  "helmbarte"= "Streitaxt mit langem Stiel",von "Helm" = "Handhabe"  & "Barte" = "Beil"  "die Barte" = "Beil, Streitaxt" Althochdeutsch  "barta", "verwandt mit "Bart"" "die Alten sahen in der Axt die 'Bärtige'"  "der Bart" =IE *bhar-dha-,Althochdeutsch "bart" and engl. "beard".
The Vulgar Latin form was vetránu ~ betránu, with syncope of the unstressed
second vowel in a three-syllable word, as is normal, and with hesitation between
initial b- an v-, which is sporadic.  In Romanian, we would expect *vãtrân, but
we have bãtrân.
[Moeller] in this case we have to assume the word was already in the latin of II centuries in use and even with sincope.
1)Are you aware of regions where inscriptions with "vetranu or betranu" where found and from which centuries?
2) Why should have had latin in the II century the word "veteranus " with  the second syllable as unstressed? I mean, in every language from today ( where we have the reloaned word)  the "te" from "veteranus" is stressed, where the second "e" is strongly accented as first e. This will lead one to say even in the II century AC the word should have had a stress on the second "e"