Re: [tied] barba, farfeche, bãiat

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 14617
Date: 2002-08-27

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:38:05 +0200, alexmoeller@... wrote:

>about barde:
>just in gallic

I don't find this word attested for Gaulish.

>and rumanian this word has a wider sens as ax
>for fighting. The germans loaned it just with the sense of
>fight, and the hungarian and the slavic people too. The
>germans were in gallic theritories but in thracian theritories
>too. For me is hard to say now, where they got it from. But is
>a loanword with 2 possiblities: thracian or celtic. The
>hungarian , slavs ar enew into this ecuation so we let them .
>The question is. Where did the rumanians have this word with
>the several senses as in galloromanic, because the word barde
>was not known in latin. This means , just substrate. And we
>have another point which point out the simility among old
>celtic and thracian even if now, people run away from
>constructs like celto-tracian and still are more of us who
>belive Decev was right with his satem type of dacian.

"Barda" in the sense of axe is a Germanic coinage. AFAIK, it did not exist in
Continental Celtic, and neither is the same word in the sense of "beard"
attested in Continental Celtic. From Germanic it spread into Slavic and Romance
(although Slavic brady ~ bradva suggests a Germanic source *bardo:, instead of
attested barda, does anyone know any more details?).

>about bãrbat:
>I agree with you here Miguell. I will take two more words from
>latin and their corespondence to romanian:
>vettelus< in rom. vitzel, vitella< vitzea. We observ that
>latin "ti" and "te" became into romanian "tzi " and "tze" and
>that "v" remains and does not change into "b".
>So if romanian bãtrân commes from veteranus we MUST have the
>form "vitzern" in romanian, but not bãtrân.

The Vulgar Latin form was vetránu ~ betránu, with syncope of the unstressed
second vowel in a three-syllable word, as is normal, and with hesitation between
initial b- an v-, which is sporadic. In Romanian, we would expect *vãtrân, but
we have bãtrân.

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal