Re: [tied] Re: IRMIN

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 13661
Date: 2002-05-08

----- Original Message -----
From: tgpedersen
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 6:39 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: IRMIN

[Piotr:] OHD irmandiot (here <d> is from the HG shift, not Vernerian),

[Torsten:] No, it's from T- -> D- -> d-, which is common Dutch and (High and
Low) German (duits, deutsch).
[Piotr:] I mean the phonation shift in fricatives. Word-initially, the voicing is even shared with southern Middle English. It was a diffused change, affecting several neighbouring West Germanic languages, though not in the exact same way. I just wanted to point out that it took place in (Old) High German, not earlier.

[Torsten:] Exactly. So as long as <þu:r> remains recognizable to the Germanic speakers, it's *ermVn-þur. After that, it's ermVn-Dur (edh).
[Piotr:] Not if the term was borrowed _after_ Verner's Law. I'd also claim that any *ermVn-X compound must have remained analysable even if the speakers were no longer aware what the X part was. Modern English speakers are able to recognise <over-> and <un-> in <overwhelm> or <uncouth> even though <-whelm> and <-couth> are 100% obscure.
[Torsten:] This might cause confusion in the <tu:ring> word, and that's what we have; there is a Thüringische Chronica, also known as Düringsche Chronica, cf. the family name Düring (said Chronica maintains BTW that the Thuringians are descended from the Tyragetai, who would then be Tyrage-tai). /d-/ is what we should expect here from <Tur-ing->, not /t-/.

[Piotr:] If there's any "confusion" here, it's of late origin. Düring- is the regular development of *þuring-, and Thüring- is an artificially Latinised form. Jacob Grimm thought that the names of the Hermun-duri and Thur-ingians were related, but of course Grimm did not understand the þ~d alternation yet.
Can you quote the relevant passage from the Thuringian Chronicle? Does it really say what you say it says? Not that I'm holding my breath. I don't believe a 15th century writer could have had access to any reliable information about the origin of the Thuringians.