Re: IRMIN

>
> >
> >
> > >Torsten:
> > > > 60BCE They set up camp in Thuringia as *erman-e-tu:r >
> <Hermundur-
> > > (in my best Tauric, assuming this was an Iranic language) "Tu:r
> > followers", which name, translated into Germanic, becomes <Tu:r-

ing-

> >.
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > > And this *-tu:r- part appears as <-duri> (short <u>), <-doroi>

in

> > ancient sources. Some kind of folk etymology, I presume.
> > >
> > > Piotr
> >
> > You got me intrigued there. Folk etymology from what to what?
> >
> > Torsten
>
> --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Now let's be serious. Spellings like <hermunduri>, <hermondoroi>
> point to Germanic *ermVn(a)-duro:z, the latter element, *dura-,
> certainly with <d> and a short vowel, whatever it means.
> >
> > BTW, *ermVn- is not just a vague compound element whose meaning

is

> deduced from the context. It occurs in Old English as an unbound,
> independently inflected adjective, in phrases like <ofer/geond
> yrmenne grund> (<yrmen> is a spelling variant of <eormen> and -ne

is

> the acc.sg. ending), and <eormen-> is on several occasions glossed

in

> Latin, always as "immensus" or "permagnus".
> >
> > Piotr
> >
>
> What is a spelling variant? Is it a kind of folk etymology? ;-)
>
> Yes, let's.
>
> Iranic <érman-?-tú:r> ->
> Pre-Proto-Germanic <érmVn-tú:r> ->
> stop shift <érmVn-Tú:r> ->
> stress shift <érmVn-Tu:r> ->
> shortening of unstressed vowel <érmVn-Tur> ->
> Verner <érmunDur>
> written (H)ermundur-
>
> cf. the participle ending PIE -nt- > Germanic -nd-.
>
> <eormen-> etc cannot be directly applied here. "The mighty Durs"
> makes no sense. Nor, for that matter, Hermino(n)es "the Mighties".

I

> suspect those who glossed it in Latin have themselves deduced its
> meaning from context, a meaning which had shifted since its first
> occurrence in Germanic. Does your quote mean "over mighty ground"?
>

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> It's a bit presumptuous to dismiss first-hand evidence and claim
that the OE speakers who translated a word from their own native
language into Latin did so incorrectly -

<ofer yrmenne grund> sounds to me like might have been a fixed
phrase. I am reminded of Old Danish <almin> "common, general", Danish
<almindelig> (unetymological /d/) "ordinary, common",
<alminding> "commons" as in the large forest in the middle of
Bornholm <Almindingen> "the commons", and even of Swedish <allamans-
rätt>, the right of anyone to stay any piece of land that is not
fenced in; in other words terra omnium = terra nullius. And yes, I
will plead folk etymology on this one too. So your <yrmenne grund>
might be the great un-owned and unknown, the frontier.



Piotr:
- not because you have overwhelming evidence to support such a claim,
but just because in order to stick to your pet fantasy you'd prefer a
different meaning.

Torsten:
Now be nice! Or I'll re-folk-etymologize <in-mens-us> too!

Piotr:
<geond/ofer yrmenne grund> means 'across/over the wide world' (OE
<grund> meant 'earth, world' in addition to 'ground'). The meaning of
<eormen/yrmen/iurmen> is just that -- 'wide, vast', hence 'great,
enormous, worldwide'. It may in fact be a derivative of the root *er-
, as in the Germanic 'earth' word (*er-þo:, *er-þo:n-, also OHG ero
without the *-þ-), though it's hard to prove anything about such a
short root.

Torsten:
True.


Piotr:
As the Latin glosses and collocations show, <eormen> referred
primarily to size (also in terms of numbers) or extent rather than
strength or power. 'The great Dur tribe' surely does make some sense,
doesn't it? As does "Herminones", meaning the same as e.g.
Slavic "Veleti". I daresay it makes more sense than the Iranian
connection.

Torsten:
Somehow "immensus" got stuck to that populus (thanks, Steve). I
wonder whether that might have pulled the interpretation of <ermVn->
in that direction?

Piotr:
> I know quite a few compounds with <eormen> or other reflexes of
*ermVna- in several Germanic languages where the second element
begins with a fricative: OS irminsu:l, OHG irmansuint, OE eormenþe:od
= OS irminthiod = OHD irmandiot (here <d> is from the HG shift, not
Vernerian),

Torsten:
No, it's from T- -> D- -> d-, which is common Dutch and (High and
Low) German (duits, deutsch).


names like Hermenfred (Ermenfrith), who, incidentally, was a king of
the Thuringians.

Torsten:
And Hermanaric, their first king.

Piotr:
There isn't a single instance of Vernerian voicing, nor should one
expect such a thing in a compound, since Verner's Law never affects
the first consonant of a root.


Torsten:
Exactly. So as long as <þu:r> remains recognizable to the Germanic
speakers, it's *ermVn-þur. After that, it's ermVn-Dur (edh). This
might cause confusion in the <tu:ring> word, and that's what we have;
there is a Thüringische Chronica, also known as Düringsche Chronica,
cf. the family name Düring (said Chronica maintains BTW that the
Thuringians are descended from the Tyragetai, who would then be
Tyrage-tai). /d-/ is what we should expect here from <Tur-ing->,
not /t-/.

Piotr:
Finally, for your derivation to make any sense at all, this *erman-i
tu:r thing (BTW, *erman-i with its vowels and izafet construction
looks distinctly Middle Persian rather than steppe Iranian) would
have had to be borrowed into pre-Proto-Germanic. How's that possible
if, according to your own timeline, the folk in question said goodbye
to the Sea of Azov ca. 100 BC and reached Thuringia ca. 60 BC?
>
Torsten:
I know. Shamefully I must admit that I was trying to hide my abysmal
ignorance of Iranic declension, in this case a genitive construction.

> Piotr
>
>
>
Torsten