From: tgpedersen
Message: 12562
Date: 2002-03-01
> ----- Original Message -----with Goth. hilm-s "helmet" etc. In other words Thracian z- should be
> From: tgpedersen
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:05 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Scythians, Zoroastrians, etc.
>
>
> For what it's worth: Detschew and others relate *zalmo- of Zalmoxis
--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> The name is Getic, in the first place, and I don't think a careful
distiction between Getic (Dacian) and Thracian is unnecessary
pedantry. Secondly, its etymology is anything but certain; it's even
hard to tell if the first element was <zamol-> or <zalmo->. <zalmos>
is cited by Porphyry as the Thracian word for 'a skin', which is a
rather far shot from <hilms> (*xelmaz < *k^el-mo-), and shows non-
matching vocalism.
Interesting you should mention that. Standard High German, Dutch, and
Southern English have *s- > *z-, whereas North Germanic, Standard
English, Northern German and Friesian don't. It seems this particular
deveopment cuts across language barriers within Germanic, possibly
related to the various dialects' "attitude" towards word boundaries
(or perhaps this is a substrate thing?). Maybe the same happened
within the related Daco-Getic and Thracian?
As for the semantic match cf. Germ. <hehlen> "cover, conceal". Note
also that felt for making hats is made from hides.
BTW on that subject, the only animal hide that doesn't
need "carroting" with a mercury compound (done on the hide itself,
which is then shaved, and the shaved-off hair is then pounded to
become felt) is that of the beaver. Which means that carroting may
have been invented to compensate for a decreasing supply of beaver
hides. So if one wants to place the appearance of mad, red pointed-
hat Magi, look for where and when the beaver went extinct. It can't
have been hunted for anything but that.
Non-matching vocalism: Doesn't Thracian have *o > *a?
A small island off the peninsula of Djursland has the name Hjelm
(= "helmet", but cf <holm> "small island", e- and o-grade?) most
likely inspired by the shape, with rather steep sides, cf the
folkevise
hjaelpe os Gud i Himmerig
nu haver Hjelm faaet horn
(of the outlawed Marsk Stig building a fortress on the island).
>
> I do not trust Thracian etymologies based on loose similarities and
unverifiable interpretations.
Well said, I also prefer firm similarities and verifiable
interpretations when I can get them.
The Greeks may have hesitated occasionally over the choice of zeta or
sigma to represent foreign /z/, but there's no real evidence of s-
voicing in the Thracian.
Unreal, then?
Sure cases of etymological *s and *k^ (e.g. hydronyms like
Serme:/Sermius < *ser-mo- 'current, flow') contain <s> in Greek and
Latin orthography.
>
> Piotr
In other words the Greeks reserved their hesitation between /s/
and /z/ to words of uncertain etymology?
Torsten