Re: Scythians, Zoroastrians, etc.

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: tgpedersen
> > To: cybalist@...
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:05 PM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Scythians, Zoroastrians, etc.
> >
> >
> > For what it's worth: Detschew and others relate *zalmo- of

Zalmoxis

> with Goth. hilm-s "helmet" etc. In other words Thracian z- should

> cognate with PIE *k. Perhaps Thracian voiced initial <s> like

German

> (at least in some contexts)? Thus *sura > zura?
>
> --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > The name is Getic, in the first place, and I don't think a

careful

> distiction between Getic (Dacian) and Thracian is unnecessary
> pedantry. Secondly, its etymology is anything but certain; it's

even

> hard to tell if the first element was <zamol-> or <zalmo->.

> is cited by Porphyry as the Thracian word for 'a skin', which is a
> rather far shot from <hilms> (*xelmaz < *k^el-mo-), and shows non-
> matching vocalism.
>
> Interesting you should mention that. Standard High German, Dutch,

and

> Southern English have *s- > *z-, whereas North Germanic, Standard
> English, Northern German and Friesian don't. It seems this

particular

> deveopment cuts across language barriers within Germanic, possibly
> related to the various dialects' "attitude" towards word boundaries
> (or perhaps this is a substrate thing?). Maybe the same happened
> within the related Daco-Getic and Thracian?
> As for the semantic match cf. Germ. <hehlen> "cover, conceal". Note
> also that felt for making hats is made from hides.
> BTW on that subject, the only animal hide that doesn't
> need "carroting" with a mercury compound (done on the hide itself,
> which is then shaved, and the shaved-off hair is then pounded to
> become felt) is that of the beaver. Which means that carroting may
> have been invented to compensate for a decreasing supply of beaver
> hides. So if one wants to place the appearance of mad, red pointed-
> hat Magi, look for where and when the beaver went extinct. It can't
> have been hunted for anything but that.
> Non-matching vocalism: Doesn't Thracian have *o > *a?
> A small island off the peninsula of Djursland has the name Hjelm
> (= "helmet", but cf <holm> "small island", e- and o-grade?) most
> likely inspired by the shape, with rather steep sides, cf the
> folkevise
>
> hjaelpe os Gud i Himmerig
> nu haver Hjelm faaet horn
>
> (of the outlawed Marsk Stig building a fortress on the island).
> >
> > I do not trust Thracian etymologies based on loose similarities

and

> unverifiable interpretations.
>
> Well said, I also prefer firm similarities and verifiable
> interpretations when I can get them.
>
>
> The Greeks may have hesitated occasionally over the choice of zeta

> sigma to represent foreign /z/, but there's no real evidence of s-
> voicing in the Thracian.
>
> Unreal, then?
>
>
> Sure cases of etymological *s and *k^ (e.g. hydronyms like
> Serme:/Sermius < *ser-mo- 'current, flow') contain <s> in Greek and
> Latin orthography.
> >
> > Piotr
>
> In other words the Greeks reserved their hesitation between /s/
> and /z/ to words of uncertain etymology?
>
> Torsten

Thank you Pavel!
This is the "cover" root:

http://bartleby.com/61/roots/IE214.html

Torsten