Re: [tied] Re: A "Germanic" query

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > But we have
> > > the testimony of
> > > Jordanes about the Eruli being driven from
> > > Scandinavia.
> >
> > *****GK: This is one of those obscure and
> ambiguous
> > passages in Jordanes from which no firm
> conclusions
> > can be drawn. He simply says that the Danes
> "Heruleos
> > propriis sedibus expulerunt". But he doesn't say
> > exactly when, and he doesn't say "expelled from
> > Scandinavia" (i.e. they could have moved to
> another
> > location in Scandinavia). This could in fact apply
> to
> > those Eruli who had recently settled in
> Scandinavia
> > after their trek north (cf. Procopius: the time
> frame
> > is shortly after 512 AD. The Danes are unknown
> prior
> > to the 6th century.) There has been extensive
> > discussion of this issue on the Gothic and
> Germanic
> > lists.******
> >
> >
> It is of course possible that the incident took
> place on Madagascar
> to where both peoples had emigrated, and from where,
> after the Danes
> had expule'd the Herulei they went their separate
> ways.

******GK: Comments like that merely demonstrate for
the umpteenth time the (shall we say diplomatically)
oddity of your thinking. Try to be more responsible.
You said "DRIVEN FROM SCANDINAVIA". Now to any normal
reader of English this means that they left the area.
But there is nothing in Jordanes which proves that the
Eruli he speaks of were in fact pushed OUT of
SCANDINAVIA. Both Dani and Eruli could have occupied
particular areas IN Scandinavia and what happened was
simply a reshuffle WITHIN Scandinavia. Many scenarios
are possible. But I must repeat in the strongest
possible terms. There is no way that Jordanes can be
used to PROVE one's favourite solution here. Nor can
he be used to disprove it. What is practically certain
is that the clash occurred IN Scandinavia. But the
Heruli's later fate cannot be determined from Jordanes
alone. Jordanes is not PROBATIVE beyond the mere fact
that both Dani and Heruli were in Scandinavia at some
point in time.******

But using

> Occam, and with no evidence that the Dani migrated
> anywhere after
> this event, the safest bet is to assume that it
> happened where the
> Dani live now, ie. in Denmark.
>
> The problem is with the interpretation of <proprius>
> "own".
> Whose "own"? Did the Danes expel the Heruli from the
> Heruli's own
> settlements (thus being invaders or colonizers from
> somewhere else,
> eg. Sweden) or did the Danes (as I read in a
> fanciful book by Viggo
> Starcke) expel the Heruli from the Danes' own
> settlements (the
> Heruli, thus, should be assumed to have improperly
> taken those from
> the Danes some time before)?
>
> There is a third solution to the "own" problem.
> Suppose both peoples
> lived in the same settlements and that the Danes
> drove them out for
> some reason? The Heruli are known to have been both
> a class (when in
> Denmark) and a people (when in Europe). The
> spectacle of a people
> driving out a learned class or people would not be a
> unique one in
> history.
>
> I propose this scenario:
>
> 1) approx 50 BCE - 0
>
> Someone arrives from the south in Denmark and later
> in the rest of
> Scandinavia (Albrectsen's conclusion based on the
> sudden introduction
> of inhumation graves, see earlier postings).
>
> 2) approx 190 CE
> The last "free Scandinavians" in western Norway
> launch an attack on
> the invaders but are repulsed (Illerup Aadal, approx
> 15000 weapon-
> related items sacrificed in bog (see
> http://www.illerup.dk) and
> related sites, this is no incursion, this is war)
>
> 3) approx 400 CE?
> As the Roman empire is weakened, so are the Germanic
> tribes that prey
> on them. A new attack, and the original invaders
> (now known as
> Heruli) are expelled. In the general mayhem under
> the occupation, all
> tribes known before to Greek and Roman authors
> (except possibly the
> Cimbri) have disappeared and the people is now known
> under the name
> of another tribe of the original invaders: Dani.
>
> 4) approx 50-100 years later?
> The Heruli return from Europe and are given free
> passage through
> Denmark to Sweden, where they settle.
>
> Dates subject to negotiation, of course!
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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