--- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> But we have
> > the testimony of
> > Jordanes about the Eruli being driven from
> > Scandinavia.
>
> *****GK: This is one of those obscure and ambiguous
> passages in Jordanes from which no firm conclusions
> can be drawn. He simply says that the Danes "Heruleos
> propriis sedibus expulerunt". But he doesn't say
> exactly when, and he doesn't say "expelled from
> Scandinavia" (i.e. they could have moved to another
> location in Scandinavia). This could in fact apply to
> those Eruli who had recently settled in Scandinavia
> after their trek north (cf. Procopius: the time frame
> is shortly after 512 AD. The Danes are unknown prior
> to the 6th century.) There has been extensive
> discussion of this issue on the Gothic and Germanic
> lists.******
>
>
It is of course possible that the incident took place on Madagascar
to where both peoples had emigrated, and from where, after the Danes
had expule'd the Herulei they went their separate ways. But using
Occam, and with no evidence that the Dani migrated anywhere after
this event, the safest bet is to assume that it happened where the
Dani live now, ie. in Denmark.
The problem is with the interpretation of <proprius> "own".
Whose "own"? Did the Danes expel the Heruli from the Heruli's own
settlements (thus being invaders or colonizers from somewhere else,
eg. Sweden) or did the Danes (as I read in a fanciful book by Viggo
Starcke) expel the Heruli from the Danes' own settlements (the
Heruli, thus, should be assumed to have improperly taken those from
the Danes some time before)?
There is a third solution to the "own" problem. Suppose both peoples
lived in the same settlements and that the Danes drove them out for
some reason? The Heruli are known to have been both a class (when in
Denmark) and a people (when in Europe). The spectacle of a people
driving out a learned class or people would not be a unique one in
history.
I propose this scenario:
1) approx 50 BCE - 0
Someone arrives from the south in Denmark and later in the rest of
Scandinavia (Albrectsen's conclusion based on the sudden introduction
of inhumation graves, see earlier postings).
2) approx 190 CE
The last "free Scandinavians" in western Norway launch an attack on
the invaders but are repulsed (Illerup Aadal, approx 15000 weapon-
related items sacrificed in bog (see http://www.illerup.dk) and
related sites, this is no incursion, this is war)
3) approx 400 CE?
As the Roman empire is weakened, so are the Germanic tribes that prey
on them. A new attack, and the original invaders (now known as
Heruli) are expelled. In the general mayhem under the occupation, all
tribes known before to Greek and Roman authors (except possibly the
Cimbri) have disappeared and the people is now known under the name
of another tribe of the original invaders: Dani.
4) approx 50-100 years later?
The Heruli return from Europe and are given free passage through
Denmark to Sweden, where they settle.
Dates subject to negotiation, of course!
Torsten