Re: Accepted cognates of Arya?

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- David Russell Watson <liberty@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ****GK: Piotr is quite correct of course. A small
> > > > corollary: some Alanic tribes WERE Avestan (the
> > > groups
> > > > which arrived in the Crimea in the late 2nd and
> > > early
> > > > 3rd c. AD, and which founded SUGDEIA, later
> > > SUROZH,
> > > > contemporary SUDAK, and temporarily renamed
> > > FEODOSYA
> > > > as "ARTABDA".)******
> > >
> > > V. I. Abaev insists that none of the Alans were
> > > Zoroastrian.
> >
> > *****GK: He's wrong as to the "none". Further
> > below.****
> >
> > > In "The Pre-Christian Religion of the Alans" he
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > "In the information that has come down to us about
> > > the
> > > religion of the Scythians, Massagetae and Alans
> > > there is
> > > no hint of any Zoroastrism. The names of the
> > > Scythian
> > > gods preserved by Herodotus have nothing in common
> > > with
> > > the names of Zoroastrian divinities.
> >
> > *****GK: The Scythians are not the late Alanic group I
> > referred to.****
> >
> > The
> > > Zoroastrian
> > > elements in the Saka language (see above) were
> > > adopted,
> > > apparently, not in the original Saka homeland but
> > > only
> > > after part of the Saka had moved to Khotan."
> >
> > *****GK: Nothing to do with my point either.******
> > >
> > > "I have no thought of reconstructing the
> > > pre-Christian
> > > beliefs of the Alans as a complete system, but only
> > > some
> > > of its fragments. However, even these fragments
> > > suffice
> > > to show that the religious conceptions of the
> > > Ossetians
> > > have some ancient Iranian, even ancient
> > > Indo-European
> > > elements, but no Zoroastrian elements whatsoever."
> >
> > *****GK: The Alanic group I mentioned was not
> > "Ossetian" in Abaev's sense. Does he consider
> > everything historically identifiable as "Alanic" to be
> > "Ossetian"? Including those Alans who wound up in the
> > West? If so, this would be a major terminological
> > fallacy. Even of those who stayed in the East, to
> > repeat, only some evolved into the modern
> > Ossetians.****
> > >
> > > "Does the Ossetic language preserve the names of any
> > > of
> > > the Iranian gods?
> > > As might have been expected, no trace of the supreme
> > > Zoroastrian god Ahuramazda has been found in it.
> > > One
> > > does find, however, the name of the pre-Zoroastrian
> > > god
> > > Vayu, whose cult dated back to deep antiquity, to
> > > the
> > > epoch of the Aryan (Indo-Iranian) and even the Indo-
> > > European community."
> > >
> > > "The information on the Scythian gods given by
> > > Herodotus
> > > in book IV of his "History" has long attracted
> > > attention
> > > and been made the subject of frequent commentary.
> > > But no
> > > one to my knowledge has paid attention to the number
> > > of
> > > Scythian gods mentioned. Yet their number is
> > > significant
> > > - seven (unless we count Poseidon Thagimasadas,
> > > whom only
> > > the royal Scythians worshipped): Tabiti, Papai,
> > > Api,
> > > Oitosyros, Artimpasa, "Heracles", "Ares".
> >
> > *****GK: Again, the Scythians have nothing to do with
> > the Alanic group I mentioned. BTW the only Scythians
> > we can identify unequivocally with Iranian-speakers
> > are precisely those "Royals" who worshipped not seven
> > but eight gods.*****
> >
> > Herodotus
> > > emphasises that the Scythians worship these gods
> > > only.
> > > Is the figure seven an accidental one? Apparently
> > > not.
> > > The anonymous author of the Periplus of Pontus
> > > Euxinus
> > > (V c. A.D.) states that the city of Theodosia in the
> > > Crimea "is called in the Alan or Tauric language
> > > Ardábda,
> > > which means having 'seven gods' (heptátheos).
> > > Contrary
> > > to doubts that have been voiced, there is no reason
> > > to
> > > seek any inaccuracy in the testimony of the
> > > anonymous
> > > author either as to the Alan name of Theodosia or
> > > its
> > > interpretation. The Alans undoubtedly had a cult of
> > > "the seven gods" which held an important place in
> > > their
> > > religion. Finally, the same cult is known to have
> > > existed among the descendants of the Alans, the
> > > Ossetians.
> > > The shrine of "Avd dzwary" or "the seven
> > > gods"situated
> > > near the village of Galiat was noted by Vs.
> > > Miller.¹²
> > > Thus the cult of the seven gods may be traced back
> > > with
> > > amazing constancy over a vast periond from the
> > > Herodotean
> > > Scythians through the Alans down to the modern
> > > Ossetians.
> > > It may be pointed out at the same time that the
> > > seven
> > > Scythian gods, by their names and functions, differ
> > > from
> > > the seven "Amshaspands" of Zoroastrianism
> > > (Ahura-Mazda,
> > > Vohu Manah, Asa vahista, etc.). The seven-god
> > > pantheon
> > > was an ancient all-Aryan convention independently
> > > inherited
> > > by both the Scythians and Zoroasttians. (Cf. the
> > > seven
> > > Vedic Aditya¹³). Retaining the seven-gods pattern,
> > > each
> > > Indo-Iranian people filled it with its own substance
> > > corresponding to the level of its economic, social
> > > and
> > > cultural development."
> >
> > *****GK: We see from the Royal Scythian example that
> > "7" was not always the magic number, so to speak. I
> > tend to follow Mary Boyce here, who argued that in
> > mazdaic Zoroastrian texts the "Amerta Spenta" are
> > frequently represented as a unified "Holy heptad". But
> > the decisive argument for the existence of Zoroastrian
> > practices among some Alanic groups of Eastern Europe
> > is the confirmed presence of the Zoroastrian burial
> > rite in gravesites of the Saltov culture (8th and 9th
> > c.)as well as in areas of ancient Kyiv associated with
> > the "Khazars". I guess Abaev didn't know this? BTW
> > some of the Alans of Eastern Europe also adopted
> > Judaism. We have Donetz inscriptions which attempt to
> > write Iranic words in Hebrew script.*****
> > >
> > > "The conclusion we draw from all the above data is
> > > as
> > > follows:
> > > The pre-Christian religion of the Alans was a
> > > synthesis of two elements: pre-Zoroastrian Iranian
> > > (including a number of specific traits
> > > characteristic
> > > of the Scythian-Massagetae group) and substratic
> > > Caucasian,
> > > which began to penetrate the religion of the Alans
> > > from
> > > the time of their appearance in the Caucasus, i.e.
> > > from
> > > the first centuries of our era.
> > > Zoroastrism left no appriciable trace on the
> > > religion
> > > of the Alans."
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> Aha!
>
> And allow me a dumb question: Does all this seven-ness have

anything

> to do with other traditional heptads besides divinities: days of

the

> week, the seven metals, the planets?
>
> BTW, I came across this site:
>
> http://www.ruspublishing.com.au/index.html
>
> Some of his etymology does not impress me, but is there something

to

> his idea of an Iranian connection to a European pre-Christian

belief

> system?
>
> Torsten

Typical. If you want something done properly, do it yourself. Here's
what I found on seven-stuff:

http://www.zen-forum.com/ForumE/showthread.php3?threadid=909
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&q=%2Bopusrex+%2Bcorax

Considering the seven degrees in Mithraism and their ruling gods and
planets, it looks like one should modify the standard story of the
Germanic borrowing of the names of the days of the week from the
Romans to include at least some Mithraism (Yes, I know, Roman
soldiers etc...). Anyway, the idea of a Roman 7-pantheon comprising
also sun and moon always seemed a bit suspect to me.

BTW, re hats,
the pointed felt hat is the mother of all hats
http://www.thehatsite.com/felt.html
and (phenotype and genotype, etc) all hats are pointed felt hats at
an early stage in their creation.
(and, for the *very* curious
http://www.villagehatshop.com/hats_glossary_a.html
but look for "pileus")

Now if Magi (etc) did wear pointed hats, and if they made them
themselves, and if felt was treated with mercury then as now (and
mercury was known at least to the Greeks) they would all have become
mad as hatters. Somewhere else on the net I read that the secret of
the mercury-treating process for felt came to Europe from Turkey with
returning crusaders, so there might have been a continued tradition.

Just a thought.

Torsten