From: tgpedersen
Message: 12333
Date: 2002-02-12
>Aha!
> --- David Russell Watson <liberty@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ****GK: Piotr is quite correct of course. A small
> > > corollary: some Alanic tribes WERE Avestan (the
> > groups
> > > which arrived in the Crimea in the late 2nd and
> > early
> > > 3rd c. AD, and which founded SUGDEIA, later
> > SUROZH,
> > > contemporary SUDAK, and temporarily renamed
> > FEODOSYA
> > > as "ARTABDA".)******
> >
> > V. I. Abaev insists that none of the Alans were
> > Zoroastrian.
>
> *****GK: He's wrong as to the "none". Further
> below.****
>
> > In "The Pre-Christian Religion of the Alans" he
> > writes:
> >
> > "In the information that has come down to us about
> > the
> > religion of the Scythians, Massagetae and Alans
> > there is
> > no hint of any Zoroastrism. The names of the
> > Scythian
> > gods preserved by Herodotus have nothing in common
> > with
> > the names of Zoroastrian divinities.
>
> *****GK: The Scythians are not the late Alanic group I
> referred to.****
>
> The
> > Zoroastrian
> > elements in the Saka language (see above) were
> > adopted,
> > apparently, not in the original Saka homeland but
> > only
> > after part of the Saka had moved to Khotan."
>
> *****GK: Nothing to do with my point either.******
> >
> > "I have no thought of reconstructing the
> > pre-Christian
> > beliefs of the Alans as a complete system, but only
> > some
> > of its fragments. However, even these fragments
> > suffice
> > to show that the religious conceptions of the
> > Ossetians
> > have some ancient Iranian, even ancient
> > Indo-European
> > elements, but no Zoroastrian elements whatsoever."
>
> *****GK: The Alanic group I mentioned was not
> "Ossetian" in Abaev's sense. Does he consider
> everything historically identifiable as "Alanic" to be
> "Ossetian"? Including those Alans who wound up in the
> West? If so, this would be a major terminological
> fallacy. Even of those who stayed in the East, to
> repeat, only some evolved into the modern
> Ossetians.****
> >
> > "Does the Ossetic language preserve the names of any
> > of
> > the Iranian gods?
> > As might have been expected, no trace of the supreme
> > Zoroastrian god Ahuramazda has been found in it.
> > One
> > does find, however, the name of the pre-Zoroastrian
> > god
> > Vayu, whose cult dated back to deep antiquity, to
> > the
> > epoch of the Aryan (Indo-Iranian) and even the Indo-
> > European community."
> >
> > "The information on the Scythian gods given by
> > Herodotus
> > in book IV of his "History" has long attracted
> > attention
> > and been made the subject of frequent commentary.
> > But no
> > one to my knowledge has paid attention to the number
> > of
> > Scythian gods mentioned. Yet their number is
> > significant
> > - seven (unless we count Poseidon Thagimasadas,
> > whom only
> > the royal Scythians worshipped): Tabiti, Papai,
> > Api,
> > Oitosyros, Artimpasa, "Heracles", "Ares".
>
> *****GK: Again, the Scythians have nothing to do with
> the Alanic group I mentioned. BTW the only Scythians
> we can identify unequivocally with Iranian-speakers
> are precisely those "Royals" who worshipped not seven
> but eight gods.*****
>
> Herodotus
> > emphasises that the Scythians worship these gods
> > only.
> > Is the figure seven an accidental one? Apparently
> > not.
> > The anonymous author of the Periplus of Pontus
> > Euxinus
> > (V c. A.D.) states that the city of Theodosia in the
> > Crimea "is called in the Alan or Tauric language
> > Ardábda,
> > which means having 'seven gods' (heptátheos).
> > Contrary
> > to doubts that have been voiced, there is no reason
> > to
> > seek any inaccuracy in the testimony of the
> > anonymous
> > author either as to the Alan name of Theodosia or
> > its
> > interpretation. The Alans undoubtedly had a cult of
> > "the seven gods" which held an important place in
> > their
> > religion. Finally, the same cult is known to have
> > existed among the descendants of the Alans, the
> > Ossetians.
> > The shrine of "Avd dzwary" or "the seven
> > gods"situated
> > near the village of Galiat was noted by Vs.
> > Miller.¹²
> > Thus the cult of the seven gods may be traced back
> > with
> > amazing constancy over a vast periond from the
> > Herodotean
> > Scythians through the Alans down to the modern
> > Ossetians.
> > It may be pointed out at the same time that the
> > seven
> > Scythian gods, by their names and functions, differ
> > from
> > the seven "Amshaspands" of Zoroastrianism
> > (Ahura-Mazda,
> > Vohu Manah, Asa vahista, etc.). The seven-god
> > pantheon
> > was an ancient all-Aryan convention independently
> > inherited
> > by both the Scythians and Zoroasttians. (Cf. the
> > seven
> > Vedic Aditya¹³). Retaining the seven-gods pattern,
> > each
> > Indo-Iranian people filled it with its own substance
> > corresponding to the level of its economic, social
> > and
> > cultural development."
>
> *****GK: We see from the Royal Scythian example that
> "7" was not always the magic number, so to speak. I
> tend to follow Mary Boyce here, who argued that in
> mazdaic Zoroastrian texts the "Amerta Spenta" are
> frequently represented as a unified "Holy heptad". But
> the decisive argument for the existence of Zoroastrian
> practices among some Alanic groups of Eastern Europe
> is the confirmed presence of the Zoroastrian burial
> rite in gravesites of the Saltov culture (8th and 9th
> c.)as well as in areas of ancient Kyiv associated with
> the "Khazars". I guess Abaev didn't know this? BTW
> some of the Alans of Eastern Europe also adopted
> Judaism. We have Donetz inscriptions which attempt to
> write Iranic words in Hebrew script.*****
> >
> > "The conclusion we draw from all the above data is
> > as
> > follows:
> > The pre-Christian religion of the Alans was a
> > synthesis of two elements: pre-Zoroastrian Iranian
> > (including a number of specific traits
> > characteristic
> > of the Scythian-Massagetae group) and substratic
> > Caucasian,
> > which began to penetrate the religion of the Alans
> > from
> > the time of their appearance in the Caucasus, i.e.
> > from
> > the first centuries of our era.
> > Zoroastrism left no appriciable trace on the
> > religion
> > of the Alans."
> >
> >
>