Re: Vanir

--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., "Alexander Stolbov" <astolbov@...> wrote:
> > I don't think that the Kingdom of Vani could be a good candidate
> for Vanir.
> > The reasons why not are, IMHO:
> >
> > - Geography. The Vanaheim is situated on the Tanais banks (a
> neighbour
> > region of Asaheim), but not behind the Caucasus mountain far
> southward.
> >
> > - A town. The center of the Kingdom of Vani was the town of Vani
> but towns
> > of Vanir were never mentioned (in contrast with Asgaard) - only
> Vanaheim and
> > Vanaland.
> >
> > - Way of life. During the war "victory was changeable, and they
> ravaged the
> > lands of each other, and did great damage". If Aesir were semi-
> nomads, Vanir
> > had to be (semi)nomads too, otherwise the war would not have a
> character as
> > described and would not finished with mutual love. Actually one

of

> the
> > tribes was incorporated in the structure of another one.
> >
> > If Aesir are not a fruit of imagination of ancient Scandinavians,
> but a real
> > tribe they must be Asses (= Yass = Yazig), a group of Alanian

people

> > (sometimes Asses were equated with Alans, sometimes were

mentioned

> side by
> > side with them). Everything - name (letter by letter), time,

place,

> many
> > details fit well.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > Alexander
> >
>
> Some years ago there was what was known as the Asian economic

crisis.

> It came suddenly, and it left again after some month or so. All the
> economic commentators were puzzled as to why.
>
> I have a guess what might have happened.
>
> First a digression.
>
> Suppose we were to write a object-oriented program to describe a
> community, or trade network, what types of objects would we need?
>
> We would need independent Agents, who had Transactions (perhaps in
> predetermined Places (Markets, Cities), moving along set Routes) in
> which they exchanged Stuff or Things. And to haggle and get the
> conditions for the transaction right (at least for transactions
> beyond rudimentary ad-hoc barter) they would need a Language. You
> might describe this system with large graph (in the computer

science

> sense of the word, or call it a network).
>
> But these networks would be isolated from one another, and there
> would be no trade among them, if there are no Bilinguals to connect
> them.
>
> So.
>
> The Asian trade which is part of the Asian network, is largely
> conducted by Chinese, in Chinese. For connection to the World, or
> English-speaking, economy it is dependent on bilinguals in

Hongkong.

> Which at the time of the crisis was preparing to be given to China.
> And a good part of the English-Chinese were therefore leaving at

the

> time. Before new bilinguals could take their place, trade would be
> disrupted.
>
> And what has that got to do with anything?
>
> From Dio Chrysostomis' 36th Discourse, of Borysthenes, a Greek

Black

> Sea colony at the mouth of the river Bug, in 96 CE:
>
> "
>
> ... And here it is also that we find the vast number of salt-works
> from which most of the barbarians buy their salt, as do also those
> Greeks and Scythians who occupy the Tauric Chersonese [the

Crimea]...

>
> The city of Borysthenes, as to its size. does not correspond to its
> ancient fame, because of its ever-repeated seizure and its wars.

For

> since the city has lain in the midst of barbarians now for so long

a

> time - barbarians, too, who are virtually the most warlike of all -
> it is always in a state of war and has often been captured, the

last

> and most disastrous capture occurring not more than one hundred and
> fifty years ago. And the Getae on that occasion seized not only
> Borysthenes but also the other cities along the left side of the
> Pontus as far as Apollonia [that would have been during the
> Mithridatic wars, perhaps "Odin" passing by? T.]. For that reason

the

> fortunes of the Greeks in that region reached a very low ebb

indeed,

> some of them being no longer united to form cities, while others
> enjoyed but a wretched existence as communities, and it was mostly
> barbarians who flocked to them. Indeed many cities have been

captured

> in many parts of Greece, inasmuch as Greece is scattered in many
> regions. But after Borysthenes had been taken on the occasion
> mentioned, its people once more formed a community, with the

consent

> of the Scythians, I imagine, because of the need for traffic with

the

> Greeks who might use this port. For the Greeks had stopped sailing

to

> Borysthenes when the city was laid waste, inasmuch as they had no
> people of common speech to receive them, and the Scythians

themselves

> had neither the ambition nor the knowledge to equip a trading

centre

> of their own after the Greek manner.
> "
>
> Which was a rather long way of saying that you can't conclude from
> the existence of the port of Vani that the Vani themselves were
> sedentary. They might well have been semi-nomadic, coming to the

port

> only for trade. One wouldn't conclude from the existence of Fort
> Apache that the Apache were sedentary? And perhaps the "land of the
> Vani" was as elusive as the "land of the Apache"?
>
> Torsten

I had one more idea as to who the Vanir (Vani?) were.
Suppose they were originally *waGn- something?

Anders provided this interesting overview of early runic inscriptions
by Looijenga:

http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/c5.pdf

There are three bog finds of weapons with the word <wagnijo> found in
Denmark, two in Illerup bog, dated with coins to not before 181 CE.
The blades of the swords are Roman, the handles local, Germanic. Are
they old hand-me-downs? I know from my time in the artillery how long
iron can be kept functional, with proper maintenance.
Looijenga proposes a connection with Vangiones, a tribe that fought
against Caesar under Ariovist (and everybody now probably knows what
role I've given him, so I won't repeat it), with the cohors Vangionum
stationed in Britain, and with the word for wain, waggon. Now suppose
the Vani on the Black Sea were IE, could they be Waggoners?
As for the weapons in Illerup, this might be the defeat of the Odin
elite, the expulsion of the Heruli, who were fighting with their
ancestors' swords?

Torsten