Re: [tied] Vanir

Thank you very much, George.

The information is interesting indeed. However I'm afraid that 7th cent. is
too late, as kurgans and other cultural innovations appeared in Scandinavia
as early as in 5th century.
Nevertheless,

> The
> Hunno-Bulgarian correspondence to the Turkic ON was
> VAN [GK: with - above the "a"].*

in connection with ONOGUR is intriguing.

So I have another question to the linguists:

"Frey was called by another name, Yngve;
and this name Yngve was considered long after in his race as a name of
honour..."
(Ynglinga Saga, 11)

Can not the name Yngve be a development of the ethnonyme Onogur?

Alexander

----- Original Message -----
From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Vanir


>
> --- Alexander Stolbov <astolbov@...> wrote:
> > I don't think that the Kingdom of Vani could be a
> > good candidate for Vanir.
> > A question to the linguists:
> >
> > Is it thinkable that a transformation like
> >
> > Hunnu > *Vun > Van
> >
> > occurred in a East Iranian or an North Germanic
> > language ?
> >
> >
> > Alexander
>
> ******GK:Here is something interesting from the
> Turkologist O. Pritsak (cf. his "The Origin of Rus'"
> (Harvard University Press 1981), pp. 243-244. [NB.
> This work was given an ambiguous reception when it
> originally appeared. But even its bitterest critics
> acknowledged that it was filled with golden nuggets.
> Possibly what follows is one of them. The citation is
> from Pritsak's chapter 11 entitled "Snorri's 'Gelehrte
> Urgeschichte': has it a historical base?"]
>
> "Sometime between 635 and 665, around Maeotis and the
> lower Don, the realm of Magna Bulgaria (not unlike the
> previous Bosporus Kingdom) was founded by the
> Onogur-Bulgar ruler Kobrat. After Kobrat died, the
> country was attacked by the Turkic Khazars, the rising
> power in that area. The struggle prompted the
> migration of three groups of Proto-Bulgars in the
> 670's; those remaining made peace with the victors and
> accepted the suzerainty of the Khazar Kagan.* [GK: All
> * indicate footnotes where P. gives his references. I
> omit them here. See the original or request specifics]
> The name Onogur [GK: O with a - above it and "g" as
> the Greek gamma] is an Altaic tribal name, derived
> from a compound with a numeral as the first component:
> ON [GK: - above "o"] in ONOGUR [GK: ditto] means
> "ten". Not infrequently such names also occur in an
> abbreviated form consisting of the numeral alone, e.g.
> Nayman, a proto-Mongolian tribe, means "eight". The
> Hunno-Bulgarian correspondence to the Turkic ON was
> VAN [GK: with - above the "a"].*
> The Turkic Khazars, before attacking the VAN
> (Onogurs-Bulgars) during the first half of the seventh
> century, took possession of most of the realm of the
> Alans in the northern Caucasus. The Alans were
> commercially active and, voluntarily submitting to the
> new and powerful empire, soon became part of its
> ruling elite..../
> In the second half of the eighth century, when the
> Norse traders and adventurers started penetrating into
> the Khazar Empire, there still existed memories in the
> epic tradition of the great war between the Turks and
> Ases, on one side, and the Vanes (Onogur-Bulgars) on
> the other, and the ensuing peace.
> The Iranian Alans formed a close alliance with the
> Germanic warriors during the migration period,
> especially with the Goths and the Vandals.* It is not
> so unlikely then, that the Alans of the Khazar Empire
> -- who were politically Turks and ethnically Ases
> (i.e. Iranians) -- transmitted to the Norse trading
> and warrior bands the current version of the steppe
> tradition that then became known as the religion of
> the Tyrkir, alias Aesir.
> The basic mythologems of the steppe religion, which
> had been abandoned by the now agricultural Germanic
> peoples, reappeared in a new version. The struggle of
> the first and second function against the third
> function was transposed into an epic story whose basis
> was a great historical event in southeastern Europe.
> The Norse trading and war bands operated in the
> Khazar Empire. From there they brought back to the
> north, where the Viking movement was just starting to
> emerge, a form of ideology and religion that suited
> their needs. This reintroduction of the
> once-upon-a-time Indo-European religion to the north
> later received an epic representation in the form of
> the story about Odinn's [GK: O with a ` and the Norse
> "d"] journeys from Tyrkland to Saxland, Frakland, and
> Scandinavia.
> In view of this theory ON Van-r should be identified
> with the Proto-Bulgarian name (VAN); Tanais -Don
> received the second name Vana-kvisl (the fork of the
> /land of the/Vanes), and the territory around its
> lower course became known as the "land" or "home" of
> the Vanes (Vana-land, Vana-heimr)." *******
>
>
>
>
>
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