Odin/Dagda/Lugh

--- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...> wrote:

> Dumezil and others usually consider Lugh as the Celtic equivalent of
> Terrible Sovereign. In fact he has many traits in common with

Odinn, and had

> a strange mimic that simuated an one-eyed.
>
> But I agree with you with on association between Dagde and Odinn,

because of

> the role of All-father in both ones. But Dagde had a club instead

of spear.

> I think Dagde had some traits of *Dyeus (All-Father), *We:yus (a

strong,

> violent god with a club, like Thorr with his hammer), perhaps the

Storm-God

> (if the club was a thunderbolt symbolism), *Manus (the clubbed

First Man,

> like Sucellus, Dis Pater, Yama) and the *Leudhiyonos (god of

masculine

> fertility and fecundity, like Freyr, Hermes/Eros and Quirinus),

although the

> *Leudhiyonos can be a syncretism with the great archaic Lord of

Beasts

> (Shiva, Dionysos, etc), consort of Great Mother.
> There was also attempts of relatong Dagde's brother, Ogme, with

Terrible

> Sovereign.

Lugh was the grandson of the Fomorian one-eyed leader, Balor. Before
Lugh was born, Balor heard a prophecy that his grandson would kill
him, so he locked his daughter in a tower. Apparently there was some
guy who was angry at Balor for stealing his magic cow, so he decided
to sneak into the tower and seduce the daughter with the help of a
little magic. Nine months later, Lugh is born, so Balor has a servant
go and drown him, but Lugh miraculously survives and grows up and
kills Balor with a slingstone to the eye.
What I get from this is Lugh is a classic heroic figure. He is
also associated with the sun, and has been connected to Hercules.
Lugh kills the one-eyed soveirgn Balor, and assumes some of his
attributes. This seems to recall Apollo killing Python and gaining
the powers of prophecy.
I think it is intersting how a version of the cattle-stealing myth
works its way into the story, albeit indirectly through the
intermediary figure of Lugh's father. Still, it again recalls Apollo
or Hercules. Just as Apollo has the characteristics of classic hero,
and also the attributes of terrible soveirgn, so does Lugh.
Lugh also uses a ranged weapon to do the deed. Lugh also adopts the
one-eyed appearance which recalls Horus, another avenger deity with
ranged weapon.

As far as Dagda goes, I guess I have read versions where he has a
club, but I have also seen at least one where he has a spear. You may
be on to something as far as Dagda/Odin having attributes from
different deity archetypes, though I still see more terrible magic
death (and fertility/agriculture?) god in these two than anything
else.

Cort Williams

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MrCaws@...>
> To: <cybalist@...>
> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 7:10 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Odin the Immigrant?
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...> wrote:
> > > The relation of Jupiter-Mars-Quirinus to Odin-Thor-Freyr was
> > intensely
> > > studied by Georges Dumezil.
> > > The Jurist Sovereign lost his hands (Tyr, Nuada, Mucius

Scaevola),

> > while the
> > > Terrible Sovereign lost one of his eyes (Odinn , Lugh, Horatius
> > Cocles).
> > > Mucius and Cocles were characters in the war between Rome and
> > Etruria.
> > > Mucius burn his hand himself to swear (falsely) that Romans will
> > not attack
> > > (cf. Tyr and Fenrir). Cocles, an one-eyed warrior, stopped the
> > Etruscan army
> > > on a bridge.
> > >
> > > I think this could be an explanation of evolution of Germanic
> > patheon
> > >
> > > Dyeus P@... > *Tiuz (Sky Father) - all-father (Latin Jupiter,
> > Greek Zeus,
> > > Indian Dyauh-Kas^yapa, Irish Dagde Ollathair)
> > > ? > *Saxsanautaz (Jurist Sovereign) - lawgiver god (Latin Dius
> > Fidius -
> > > Jupiter's epithet-, Indian Mitra, Irish Nuada)
> > > Wa:tNnos > *Wo:th@... (Terrible Sovereign) - magic god (Latin
> > Jupiter
> > > Stator, Indian Varuna)
> > > Tn@... > *Thunraz (Storm-God) - king of gods, storm god (Latin
> > Jupiter
> > > Tonans, Indian Indra)
> > > We:yus > ? (Wind-God) - strong, huge, violent god (Greek

Poseidon,

> > Indian
> > > Va:yu)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Tiuz - father of Saxsanautaz, Wo:th@..., Thunraz and Wind-god
> > >
> > > -------------------------------
> > > Tiuz was merged to Saxsanautaz. (Perhaps Tyr < *Ti:waz <

*Deiwos).

> > Fusion of
> > > Sky-God and Jurist god is also possible in Lithuanian Deivas. If
> > Tyr,Tiu <
> > > *Ti:waz instead of Tiuz, we can simply assume that Wothnaz

aborsbed

> > *Tiuz,
> > > and that *Saxsanautaz became *Ti:waz.
> > >
> > > Wo:th@... absorbed the all-father role of Tiuz and royal role of
> > Thun@...
> > > (allfather + magic + king)
> > > Thunraz was identified to Wind-God, but kept the atmospheric
> > features and
> > > the name of IE *Tn@... (strength + storm)
> > >
> > > Wo:thnaz - father of Tiuz-Saxsanautaz and Thunraz
> >
> >
> > Very interesting! I think Odin and Dagda must be related. Besides
> > from the all-father epithet, Dagda also has a reputation as a
> > magician, wields a spear, and is known for his musical prowess

(Which

> > I associate with Odin's affinity for poetry).
> >
> > What I think is interesting is Dagda also is associated with corn

and

> > milk. This connection to corn, and cattle(via milk), makes him a
> > deity of agriculture, fertility, cattle, music, and magic. I would
> > think he would fit in the terrible soveirgn magic deity you
> > mentioned.
> > These attributes would also fit Hermes(Especially the older

bearded

> > phallic Hermes) or maybe Kronos. He is the father of the thunder

god,

> > after all. I'm still thinking about your other ideas.
> >
> > Cort Williams
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > --- In cybalist@..., "William P. Reaves" <beowulf@...>

wrote:

> > > >
> > > > > The case for Tyr as the Dyuas Pater of the Germanic tribes

is

> > based
> > > > on
> > > > > nothing more than etymology of the name. And the theory

that the

> > > > Germans had
> > > > > an earlier god named *Tiu which was displaced by Odin is
> > > > unfortunately still
> > > > > current in many scholarly books.
> > > > >
> > > > > I tend to believe that if the Germanics had a god named

*Tiu it

> > was
> > > > merely
> > > > > Odin himself under an earlier name, rather than the god Tyr

who

> > was
> > > > > displaced by the migrant Odin.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tyr is interesting, I want to learn more about him. I know
> > Tuesday is
> > > > named after Tyr. In Italian, Tuesday is Martedi.
> > > > I also know one story about him: The gods wanted to bind the
> > Fenris
> > > > wolf, and finally made a chain strong enogh to hold him. They
> > > > couldn't think of a way to catch him, though, so they decided
> > instead
> > > > to trick him. They told the wolf they only wanted to test the
> > > > strength of the chain, and they would let him go after that.

As

> > proof
> > > > of their sincerity, Tyr put his right hand in the wolf's

mouth.

> > The
> > > > gods broke their word, and Tyr lost a hand.
> > > > This seems similar to Odin sacrificing his eye for knowledge.
> > Odin
> > > > gives up one eye to know or see more, Tyr gives up his hand to
> > make
> > > > his word binding. I've read about a pricniple triad of

Teutonic

> > > > deities: Odin, Thor, and Tyr. Maybe this corresponds with the

old

> > > > Roman triad Quirinus, Jupiter, Mars? I'm still working on that
> > idea.
> > > >
> > > > Cort Williams
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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