Re: Tribal Names in IE Languages

--- In cybalist@..., lsroute66@... wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > But your theory does not account for the opposition
> > "sheer"/"bastard" implicit in the names.
>
> If "bastarnae" is Greek, then there would be no opposition with
> "Skiri"

exactly my point.

>and I don't believe there is anything to indicate there should
> be.

As for 'Bastarnae' meaning "mixed breed, bastards" this is exactly
what Tacitus describes them to be. That's an indication.

Could "Skiri" be a Greek word also? Or from some other IE

> language? Is it worth looking into, considering that the word

comes

> to us exclusively through Greek (and, later, Latin)?

No, as for as I know no one has come up with a Greek etymology
for 'Skiroi'.

>
> This brings up the whole issue of whether names like Bastarnae,

Skiri

> and even Goth were self-names at all, in the sense that they were
> names people called themselves in their own language with a meaning
> they recognized. Or were they given names, with some meaning in

Greek

> or the languages that often separated Greek geographically from
> Germanic?
>
> A good parallel are Native American tribal names. We use Navaho,
> Apache and Iroquois to refer to tribes who did not call themselves
> those names - at least not initially. These were names given by

other

> Indian tribes. I've mentioned the word "Greeks" which wasn't the
> Greek name for Greeks. We use the Roman name for Greeks, not the
> Greek name.
>
> Names often don't follow the logic that are always attributed to
> ancient Germanic names. Americans were not named for any

attribute.

> The whole "tribe" is named after a 15th Century Italian sailor.
> There's a terrific irony in modern day descendents of Hengist and
> Horsa calling themselves "British." "Vlachs", by an almost equal
> irony, appear to derive their name from a tribe in Gaul by way of a
> designation for Italians and Franks, cognate I believe with "Welsh."
>

OK, you've proved that some self-names are given by others. Now to
the tricky part; proving that the name of the Goths was given by
others.

> In all the many discussions of the Goth's name, I've seen very

little

> consideration that the name might have in fact been Greek. Based
> roughly on the history of names, there should be something like a
> 50-50 chance it was not Germanic. Heck, it could have been a

Thracian

> or Scythian name for some group of people. Borrowed by the Greeks

and

> then borrowed as a self name by the Goths. How would one know the
> difference?
>
> The general form and semantics supposedly behind the Goth name also
> appear extensively in Greek and to some degree Latin. This is what
> happens with related languages. One IE language may be as good a
> candidate as another.
>

I don't think I understand the last paragraph. And what would *got-
mean in Greek then? And if it had been a name given by the Greek, you
would have expected it to analyzable in Greek? Also consider this:
Jordanes says thay come from the island of Scandza, ie. Scania or
Scandinavia. In Scandinavia you find the island of Gotland, the
regions of Östergötland and Vestergötland. Are they also Greek,
Thracian or Scythian names, or are they unrelated to the name of the
Goths? Occam weeps.

Torsten