Re: When Germani?

--- In cybalist@..., "Joseph S Crary" <pva@...> wrote:

>
>
> Tor
>
> Right
>
> looks very q to me as well
>
> Sequani C-kwat
>
> Very primative
>
> Still not Nordic-German
>
> Maybe its like several retentive Latin words
>
> like
>
> quattuor or quinque
>
>
> >Does that mean that the ethnogenesis (or rather glotto-genesis?)

of

> Germanic should be put at shortly before that year?<
>
> I think the main move from Sweden began within a few years of the
> Cimbric migration south, around 120 BC. A much bigger Nordic-German
> move during the period of the Roman-German wars, from roughly 55 BC
> to AD 45. At present just a formative theory.
>
> >Did Germanic (as a recently established creole) suddenly spread on
> previously Celtic territory? <
>
> I think for the most part yes. I believe the Roman sources document
> that the Celt-Germans were so depleted by intertribal wars, wars

with

> rome, and the migration of populations into the Roman held

Rhineland,

> that there was a virtual flood of Nordic-Germans from Sweden into
> Denmark and northern Germany.
>
> This would explain why there is so little impact of Celtic on
> continental Germanic. If the Nordic-Germans had lived side-by-side
> with the Celts on the continent for a long time one would expect to
> find more evidence in German. For example, the type of similarities
> found between Brythonic and Baltic. To me this indicates that
> Brythonic-speakers shared a common border with Baltic-speakers at
> some relatively recent point in time. This leaves no room for the
> Nordic German except in Sweden and points north.
>
> Again must run now
>
> JS Crary

Just for the record, that's different from my view.
I think proto-Germanic was first used by some traders on the Russian
rivers when trading at the European watershed around the Tanew river,
as I think Piotr suggested. This is the area where according to
classical Greek writers Celtic and Scythic clash. ("Celto-Scythic
bastardisation"). In my view it was at first a pidgin language, but
possibly became a creole as people settled permanently in the
transshipment area. It was one of the twelve languages Snorri
mentions. When "Odin" (or whoever he was) left with his followers
(from the city of Tanais?) around 70 BCE to avoid the invasion of
Pompey he left behind what was to become the East Germanic speakers.
He arrived in Thuringia and set up a kingdom and distributed land to
his followers. They used there the creole that they used to use in
the area closest to their new home, ie. Germanic. This was the
beginning of West Germanic languages."Odin" then moved on to Odense,
set up a kingdom and distributed land there and sent an expedition to
Sweden. This was the beginning of the North Germanic languages.
Snorri in the Prolog says that the language of the invaders became
the language of the land. The fragmentation and elitism of the Celtic
languages favored the spread of the new creole (even today, no matter
how fervently nationalist a Welshman and Irishman are, when they
communicate, it is in English). Also, the Celtic tribes were weakened
and scattered by the Cimbric invasions. In short, the story of
England was just a repeat performance.
This, I think would match Caesar's first being aware of distinction
between the Galli and the Germani ("true" Galli) around 59 BCE.

Torsten