[tied] Re: Underworld

From: MrCaws@...
Message: 6792
Date: 2001-03-27

--- In cybalist@..., Omar Karamán <diogenes@...> wrote:
>
> MrCaws@... wrote:
>
> > I agree that Cerberus onece appears to havee been more serpentine.
> > This could be due to a sort of cultural merger, perhaps pre-IE
Greeks
> > had serpentine Cerberus, old IE steppe dwellers had a dog as an
> > underworld guardian?: I have noticed the dog as underworld
guardian
> > is a more common motif among northern shamanistic societies.
Perhaps
> > this is why there is so much dog symbolism in Norse myth?
>
> I always wondered if shamanistic aspects of Norse mythology may have
> something to be with Finnish believing. We have to explain the tree,
> Odin's hanging, some Underworld descents, the magical seidhr, Odin's
> shape
> shifting... I think Norse mythology shows strong influences from
> shamanism, perhaps more obvious than other IE religious systems.


I agree. There are definite echoes of the Finnish construct in
Norse mythology. Another connection to shamanism: Loki. Loki plays
the part of the pseudo-adversarial trickster common in shamanistic
tales very well.
Odin has many aspects of the shaman or magician. He is
traditionally identified with Mercury, and wears the wide brimmed hat
often associated with wizards. He is connected with the wolf, raven,
and horse. I habe posted before about the parallels between Hermes
and Slavic Veles, so it won't surprise anybody that I connect Odin
quite closely to him as well. I think it is interesting that in the
Norse pantheon this magician type deity reigns supreme, where as
elsewhere he often becomes a subordinate or equal to the warrior
thunder god(And usually his enemy).
I think some of it might have to do with Odin's dissocation from
the serpent. Most other magician deities have a connection with the
serpent, linking them to death and evil as well as wisdom and power.
The serpent was instead a separate primeval force in Norse myth.
However, Odin's animals the raven and wolf both have mystical
significance...
Apollo was also a magician deity. Known as Lycian Apollo, his
mother Leto was associated heavily with the wolf. I wonder if there
might be a connection? Apollo slew the Python, could this be an
example of the dog/wolf motif supplanting the serpentine one?

Now, a mostly unrelated tangent off that last sub-point- Apollo was a
twin, born by a wolf-like mother. The origin of his cult is often
thought to lie around Lycia. What other wolf-born twins do we know
of? Hmm... I wonder if this could be an example of Anatolian themes
in Etruscan/Roman myth? Apulu could be a direct Anatolian import,
instead of a second-hand borrowing from the Greeks, and the story of
the twins could survive(albeit in a different form) in Romulus and
Remus. Just a few ideas.

-Mr. Caws