Re: [tied] Re: Underworld

It's interesting that Hydra, Cerberus' sister, is a serpent but also has dog
traits.

----- Original Message -----
From: <MrCaws@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 10:56 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Underworld


> --- In cybalist@..., Omar Karamán <diogenes@...> wrote:
> >
> > MrCaws@... wrote:
> >
> > > I agree that Cerberus onece appears to havee been more serpentine.
> > > This could be due to a sort of cultural merger, perhaps pre-IE
> Greeks
> > > had serpentine Cerberus, old IE steppe dwellers had a dog as an
> > > underworld guardian?: I have noticed the dog as underworld
> guardian
> > > is a more common motif among northern shamanistic societies.
> Perhaps
> > > this is why there is so much dog symbolism in Norse myth?
> >
> > I always wondered if shamanistic aspects of Norse mythology may have
> > something to be with Finnish believing. We have to explain the tree,
> > Odin's hanging, some Underworld descents, the magical seidhr, Odin's
> > shape
> > shifting... I think Norse mythology shows strong influences from
> > shamanism, perhaps more obvious than other IE religious systems.
>
>
> I agree. There are definite echoes of the Finnish construct in
> Norse mythology. Another connection to shamanism: Loki. Loki plays
> the part of the pseudo-adversarial trickster common in shamanistic
> tales very well.
> Odin has many aspects of the shaman or magician. He is
> traditionally identified with Mercury, and wears the wide brimmed hat
> often associated with wizards. He is connected with the wolf, raven,
> and horse. I habe posted before about the parallels between Hermes
> and Slavic Veles, so it won't surprise anybody that I connect Odin
> quite closely to him as well. I think it is interesting that in the
> Norse pantheon this magician type deity reigns supreme, where as
> elsewhere he often becomes a subordinate or equal to the warrior
> thunder god(And usually his enemy).
> I think some of it might have to do with Odin's dissocation from
> the serpent. Most other magician deities have a connection with the
> serpent, linking them to death and evil as well as wisdom and power.
> The serpent was instead a separate primeval force in Norse myth.
> However, Odin's animals the raven and wolf both have mystical
> significance...
> Apollo was also a magician deity. Known as Lycian Apollo, his
> mother Leto was associated heavily with the wolf. I wonder if there
> might be a connection? Apollo slew the Python, could this be an
> example of the dog/wolf motif supplanting the serpentine one?
>
> Now, a mostly unrelated tangent off that last sub-point- Apollo was a
> twin, born by a wolf-like mother. The origin of his cult is often
> thought to lie around Lycia. What other wolf-born twins do we know
> of? Hmm... I wonder if this could be an example of Anatolian themes
> in Etruscan/Roman myth? Apulu could be a direct Anatolian import,
> instead of a second-hand borrowing from the Greeks, and the story of
> the twins could survive(albeit in a different form) in Romulus and
> Remus. Just a few ideas.
>
> -Mr. Caws
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