Underworld

Glen Gordon wrote:

> Ah, yes indeed, my good sir/madam/he-she... From the last incident with Max
> Dashu I learned that I shouldn't assume one's sex. I may interchangeably
> call you a sir or madam. Hope you don't mind :)

No problem, but if it is useful to you, I am a man.

> Mars the god only
> later was associated with Greek Ares and war. It is believed that he was
> once a deity associated with harvest (thus, a chthonic deity).

Yes, but Dumézil has showed that this theory is not accurate.

> However, Mars
> became a war god nonetheless with all the trimmings associated with the
> warrior caste and the planet Mars to which he was associated has a ruddy hue
> as seen with the naked eye from my balcony. The red colour of the generals
> here could hardly represent the "light of Jupiter" since Jupiter is quite
> bright and "white" in the sky, quite unlike the red planet Mars.

You link red to Mars and I prefer linking it to life and health. But you
have to explain the rest of the features: sceptre, dress, crown...

> We see the same association of heroic warriors with "red" in the Indian
> "varna" caste system which is thought to be very ancient (white for
> brahmans, red for kshatriyas, brown for vaishnas and black for shudras). The
> shudras (servants) are an addition to the system with the brahmans
> (priests), kshatriyas (warriors) and vaishnas (cultivators) being most
> original. The kshatriyas are of interest to this association of red and
> warriors, of course.

Because warriors have to be strong and healthy to better accomplish
their function perhaps?

> A tripartite system of sky-earth-underworld can very easily erode into a
> bipartite one of sky-earth, especially if there are local traditions where
> the latter is believed.

(snips)

I don't deny the existence of an Underworld in former IE believing. I
never said that. What I think is that you are trying to find a
tripartite/triad/etc. everywhere and because of that effort you need to
put under the ground a lot of things that are on it, the warrior
function in this case.

> Oh, and before I forget. I'd like to briefly mention that the order that the
> functions are listed in is quite irrelevant in terms of "rank" since none of
> the three functions are more superior than the other two. The order however
> is important in terms of understanding IE world-view which is why I put the
> commoner caste as second (with the middleworld) and the warrior caste at the
> bottom (with the underworld). That's all.

Fine.

> Ugh, Hinduism does have an underworld! You might want to comment on the Rig
> Veda's mention of "seas" in the beginning of creation... that is, in the
> "pre-Parusha" years when the middleworld (being a seperate creation brought
> about by Parusha) didn't exist yet. Afterall, his feet have to sit in
> somethin' :P

I only gave an example on how facts don't fit sometimes to the best and
strong theories in spite of the common sense you asked me to have. I am
as sure as you that there was an Underworld in IE believing; the point
is that we have
different ways to figure it, that's all.

> Boy, that Purusha giant is so "IE", huh? (cf. Norse Ymir). So is that varna
> thing. Gee, I wonder why the Rajanaya (kshatriyas) would be born from
> Purusha's arms. Perhaps the Rajanaya are prone to taking up arms. Perhaps
> arms are a sign of strength. Perhaps they have something to do with a
> warrior caste which is naturally associated with physical strength, hmmm?
> Warriors need meaty arms to fight all those nasty meanies. Funny too 'cuz
> the kshatriyas are associated with red, which surely represents in no way
> the IE warrior function, eh. :P

Why not? I coincide with you on it: life, strength, blood... but not the
Underworld.

> >Norse Hel was believed to have her face half black, half
> >white. As you spoke above about common sense, it tells me that earth >is
> >generally black, so my common sense tries to associate it with >what
> >underground is. In addition to this, black animals were >sacrificed to
> >Greek Hades, who was called sometimes "Chthonic Zeus" >too (perhaps a link
> >with Eleusinian mysteries).
>
> But these factoids are of little irrelevance to IE mythos if these features
> cannot be seen across the spectrum of IE mythologies. Are black animals
> sacrificed to an underworld figure elsewhere? How geographically broad is
> this practice across IE cultures? Etc, etc. Tripartition _is_ demonstrable
> across IE cultures.
>

Wel, we may begin a research to find black connections with IE
underworld believing across the IE world, don't you think?

> Yes, yes, but focus. IE speaking peoples (we presume they are IE) clearly
> use red ochre in burials. This isn't open to interpretation. Red ochre _was_
> important to the ceremony unlike green trees, meadows, yadayadyada. If red
> ochre doesn't involve the underworld in this context, what DOES it
> represent?

I don't say that red ochre has nothing to do with the Underworld in this
case. I am inclined to see this colour as a link between the dead and a
possible afterlife in an Underworld. I link this kind of red to a life
that continues in some way. In fact, are not our dead "embellished"
when
exposed to relatives? They are treated as if they were alive, sometimes
with red cheeks too. Remember the Greek custom of dismembered or
mutilated dead as to avoid them to have a good performance in the
Underworld. Oedipus' blindness is believed to represent the same idea:
not be able to see his fathers in the Underworld because the shame for
his incest. I am thinking about a good physical look here to grant a
good Underworld life later. Following this reasoning, why not to ascribe
red ochre to that afterlife?

> There are certainly dual or triple meanings to
> colours but this is exactly something I'm proposing here afterall! I said
> for instance that "red" symbolizes the underworld as well as the warrior
> caste.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps I may ask you if you can provide specific
examples of this colour (and _only_ this) in the Underworld imagery (no
warriors or allegedly links) so to disregard the black as a
funerary/underworld symbol.

> Erh, why would you give a cake to a snake? Do snakes eat cakes? I know they
> eat mice. Wouldn't it make better sense to feed a mouse to a snake?

Yes of course, but I am talking about what I have read in the
"Dictionnaire...". I am so intrigued as you are. But Trophonius cult is
in fact related to snakes (being snakes oracular, like Python) as well
as honey cakes. Is not strange that snakes are linked to graves,
oracles,
forefathers, heroes, dead? Why not a dog living in a warrior's tomb?

> Dogs
> like cakes. Why not give a hungry hell-hound a cake? It beats being eaten
> for eternity, I'll say. Now, while it might be tempting to blame the
> Egyptians on this soul-eating monster story, we can't blame the Egyptians
> for everything. It certainly doesn't explain Norse Garmr which fits the same
> general pattern of an IE canine guarding the dead. It's true that "Ares is a
> warrior and he is not responsible for what predators do with slain men" but
> it's nonetheless his close association with death and wolves, animals that
> relate to the IE underworld, that's fishy for a supposedly purely chthonic
> deity as you portray him to be.

Let's suppose that there was a first stage in which snake was believed
to be the chthonic/underworld animal by excellence (as it is shown by
thoughts connected with wisdom, fertility, forefathers and so on as well
as the creation and the snake myth). With the pass of time, the serpent
was gradually substituted by dogs or wolves. This could explain the
reason why the former snake disappeared from the Greek underworld as a
single individual and was put into Kerberus' hair, as well as his
permanence near a river (the Aqueron) as a relict from older times, when
snakes were believed to live in pools, lakes and rivers. This may be
linked to folk tales that show even closer connections between the
serpent and the underworld as well as ancient initiation patterns all
over the world.


Omar