Glen,
(snips)
> 1) magic-law
> 2) chthonic fertility
> 3) war-hunting
>
> So we have three castes (classes of people within IE society) that look
> after the three roles:
>
> 1) priests, chiefs
> 2) gatherers, herders, farmers
> 3) warriors, hunters
Dumézil says that the second function is your third and your
second the third one, but it is only a minimum detail. I have some
discrepancies with magic in the first function, but it will be mentioned
later.
> It doesn't take much to realize that the three functions must surely be
> associated with the three realms.
I would prefer "may" instead of "must", if you don't mind. In
such a case I can still doubt until being completely convinced.
> The three realms are sky, earth and underworld. Just common sense so far.
Not for Hindus however, who wrote in the Rig Veda: "From
his navel arose the air; from his head the heaven evolved; from his feet
the earth; the [four] directions from his ear. Thus, they fashioned the
worlds" (talking about Purusha; excuse me the lack of line numbers).
Being Hindu texts quite old enough, there are no signs of the
underworld here.
> The earth goes with chthonic fertility hands down, controlled by *Manus
> (man, ruler of the earthly domain) and *Yemos (fertility, earthly realm),
> the Horse Twins. The connections between fertility and the earthly realm are
> too bluntly apparent to ramble on about. Agreed?
Yes, but I would add some possible links between this realm
and the Underworld to explain fertility. For example, we have a relation
between the dead and house's prosperity in terms of good harvests.
> Now again, magical knowledge and law clearly go with the sky, and is given
> to *Dye:us (law) and *Wextnos (magical knowledge & overworld realm). For the
> most part, Thor and Odin are in charge of these ideas in Norse mythos and...
> they live in the sky. Enough said.
Not enough, however. Thor has attributes both of warrior and
thunder god. Odin's magic attributes (the spear Grungnir and the ring
Draupnir) comes from the third function as well as the mead of
inspiration. Aesir have a magic of their own that is learnt by the
Vanes, so we may wonder how much of Odin's magical abilities come from
the Aesir (third function too). The point is not clear. In addition to
this, according with Tyr's story with Fenrir, I would add this god to
your summary of Norse gods related to law.
> This leaves war and hunting with the underworld but this would imply
> strongly that this is the domain of *Nepo:t (waters of the underworld) and
> *PerkWnos (war). Now surely *Nepo:t, being the watery realm, has an
> automatic connection with the underworld, being a watery place (cf. Styx,
> for instance)
Yes, a watery place, but only to separate realms, in my opinion.
> This leaves only *PerkWnos, the
> god of war and storm, to connect securely as the leader of the underworld.
Excuse my ignorance, but I can't see the connection yet. You
insist on war, storm and underworld as if it was necessary to find a
tripartite scheme everywhere.
> It states sobrely: "Parallels often existed between the functions
> and the 'Three Worlds:' clergy were associated with the Sky,
> warriors with the Waters
I don't understand the last statement. Which kind of relation?
> If so, the connection between
> war and the underworld is very obvious. Let me outline this out in my own
> querky way. War causes casualties, no? It causes death. If it didn't cause
> death, we wouldn't call it "war". We would call it a "spat", or a
> "disagreement", or a "bad day at work". While spats, disagreements and bad
> days at work can cause mental anguish, possibly even requiring the need for
> years of intense therapy, war usually causes lots of bloody death. Hence the
> underworld and warrior connection with red: the colour of blood, the colour
> of dying leaves in autumn, etc.
I don't agree with your kind of reasoning here. Following
your way, I may say that as cemeteries are used to burying people, and
green meadows and threes with green leaves are found there, so green is
a colour for the dead. I admit of course that blood/red have two
meanings: if one have it inside his body, giving colour to his cheeks
and warm to his limbs, so blood means life; if one is dying by a lot of
wounds, so the opposite. Symbols are not unique: black is appropriate
for mourning clothes as well as for erotic clothes too.
> Hence, I think we can all understand now that the IE pictured the dead as
> "living in the underworld", both literally and poetically.
I don't agree. To be buried, cremated, put under a tumulus or
into a Parsi tower is not equal to be living in the underworld. It
depends on which the after death believing may be, if there is any.
> There are many IE
> myths to prove this (Hades, Hel, yadayadayada...). Ares, the Greek god of
> war, is associated with the dog, the animal that protects the entrance to
> the underworld in common IE myth.
Yes, but there is a point of view that stands, according to
the cake that was offered to him by the Cumaean sibyl, that the former
Kerberus was a snake, not a dog. Have cakes something to do with
Trophonius' cult? If it were so, may we find a connection between the
Underworld and the prophetic powers? A point to discuss later, I guess.
Quoting D'Aremberg-Saglio (bibliographical reference later if
needed), "On a généralement renoncé à retrouver dans Cerbère un derivé
du Çavala védique, un des deux chiens de Sarameya que la mythologie
hindoue place dans le Yama (les Enfers)." Perhaps it is a very old
source, I may admit. In fact, I think that there is something strange
regarding Underworld dog(s) because of the widely known idea of a
carnivore mammal in this realm (although I am thinking about Egyptian
influences here too).
> He is also connected with many, many, many
> gods and goddesses pertaining to the underworld and death (the Keres,
> Phobos, Deimos, yadayadayada...). Then there's Aeropus who was breastfed by
> her dead mother Aerope. How? With Ares help, of course. Gee, that looks like
> a war/death/underworld connection...
I can't follow you here. The dog was eating corpses long,
long time before the first IE begun to think about connections between
war, death and underworld. The same thing happens with the wolf and his
hunt practices, a model for the man to imitate, of course (later,
initiation patterns, etc.).
The Keres has nothing to do with Ares in terms of genealogy (not the
case for Phobos/Deimos, of course) or etymology (if my researches are
accurate... I still have the benefit of doubt.). They belong to another
segment of the Greek mythological corpus: they make things unclean,
cause various diseases, old age and death, misfortune and so on. They
are even equated to "Fate". Perhaps they are like a poetic
personification of the corpses' eaters (akin to dogs and birds) too.
Ares is a warrior and he is not responsible for what predators do with
slain men. Put yourself into his shoes and tell me if you would spend
your time burying corpses. But being a loving father (why not?),
he is expected to take care of his child. The point is that you
think that this is so because of his Underworld nature while I may (note
the possibility, not the certainty) think that it can be linked to some
allegedly relationships with the 3rd IE function; BTW, I am sure Dumézil
would have me punished for this argument: it was argued that a prayer to
Mars (Ares) by farmers linked this god to the third function (as well as
Thor in Norse believing), a point that was completely rejected by the
French scholar... But I think it is useful to say that sometimes Ares
was connected perhaps with things very far from his actual
commitments... the Underworld, for example.
> Also, the connection between war and weapons provides a link as well. It's
> funny how fashioning spears, hammers, clubs and slingshots goes so well with
> the theme of war. Don't you think so? Yet, weapon-fashioning is always tied
> in with the underworld (Etruscan-Roman Vulcan & Greek Hephaistos, the war
> and weapon-making god Tyr getting his hand bitten off by the hellhound
> Fenris, yadayadayada...)
Tyr was a war god, not weapon making. By the way, the chain
to hold Fenris was made by dwarves. Relating to Vulcan and Hephaistos,
they are smiths and smiths make not only weapons, as Greek mythology
shows clearly: Harmonia's necklace, Agamemnon's sceptre, Pandora, magic
objects... Perhaps we may discuss blacksmiths and gods theories later.
> Does the myths of Odysseus or Theseus firmly relate to other IE myths or has
> the objective of these myths been altered?
I ask myself the same question and I suppose we can expect a
lot of bias here (noblesse oblige...).
> Regardless, there isn't a direct
> one-to-one connection between the Hero and the storm god. That is, the IE
> Hero surely has more than one dilemma to overcome, requiring the help of
> more than one type of god. The original tale probably involved three trials
> (one for each realm/function) since three is obviously associated with these
> myths (cf. three-headed serpent). We later find as much as twelve labours in
> the myths of Heracles (multiplied by four).
This is a very good point. I will try to collect relating myths to
support a later discussion. Partners welcome!
> Red associated with generals in triumph only reaffirms the "red=war"
> equation.
Excuse me if I say "no" in such an emphatic way. The general
worn a special dress, held a sceptre and was crowned with laurel. These
are not Mars' attributes at all. It seems to be akin to a king majesty
or perhaps to the very Jupiter (in Republican times, I am inclined to
the second option). Indeed, there was a slave saying "hominem te
memento" ("remember that you are a man" ("human being" is better)), so I
am tempted to associate it with Juppiter's role. I don't see here such
an association with war because, according to the tripartite IE scheme,
this god are in charge of justice too (perhaps especially for Romans,
who were so careful about laws, peace contracts, etc.). But if we agree
with any of the above mentioned interpretations, red coloured cheek only
can be a sign of health (if king) or power/light (if Jupiter).
> The red ochre is a very ancient tradition but I might offer a
> possible IE interpretation of it. As I have stated, red is the colour of not
> only war and the warrior function but of the underworld realm, the land of
> the dead. (Light colours like cyan, yellow and white involve the overworld;
> Dark colours like blue and green, the earth.)
Norse Hel was believed to have her face half black, half
white. As you spoke above about common sense, it tells me that earth is
generally black, so my common sense tries to associate it with what
underground is. In addition to this, black animals were sacrificed to
Greek Hades, who was called sometimes "Chthonic Zeus" too (perhaps a
link with Eleusinian mysteries).
> > > So in the underworld, *PerkWnos is in charge, the god of war and
> > > storms.
> >
> >But storms are originated in the sky. The Underworld may explain
> >earthquakes or floods, but storms?
>
> Yes it can. A battle in the sky between the offensive underworld deities led
> by *PerkWnos (warrior function) and the defensive overworld led by *Dye:us
> (priest function). The clang of weapons causes lightning and the roar of the
> gods causes thunder.
So *PerkWnos is not the god of storms? So you contradict here
what you have said a few lines above. He is one of the couple that makes
storms then.
> Not at all. The underworld was not "evil" as in the Christian sense.
I never said that!
> Both
> good _and_ evil deities could exist in either the overworld or the
> underworld.
I agree!
> Ugliness has nothing to do with anything.
Of course not! But why are you (mis)understanding me in such
a way? I thought I was clear.
> >>The wife of *PerkWnos is the beautiful *Xste:r (Venus), goddess of
> >>love.
> Besides, in Egyptian myth, Isis is clearly depicted as a beautiful young woman
> and yet, she hangs around Osiris, the god of death and the underworld. You're
> tres wrongo there.
What I think is that a beautiful goddess don't look nice in
an underground and dark place (as surely the Underworld was, according
to Greek mythology at least). In spite of Hell (not so beautiful
perhaps), the love goddess is usually (if not always) engaged in her
business over the ground. I can't imagine (common sense again but
supported with mythological evidence) a love goddess in the middle of
shadows married to the Underworld lord. Isis and Osiris were not
Underworld deities from the very beginning, if memory serves (the same
as Persephone).
> The Greek schemes of underworld were not simplistic.
I don't want to be misunderstood: when I spoke about Greek I
was speaking about Iliad's underworld, simplistic indeed. I don't say
that Norse or Indo-Iranian mythologies are underdeveloped, but that old
IE mythology seems to be very far from what we judge as "very well
developed" according with somewhat "classic" patterns. Just take a look
into the Greek Underworld conceptions and you will see the chaos. The
Greek lower realm seems to have been a gradual development from very
simple statements. Dead were believed to be near the household to give
protection to their relatives, or near their funeral monuments later,
etc. This is just a big problem because one have to explain how a "soul"
can be in two different places at the same time, but we shall examine
the point in a ending note by Lucian.
Relating to the main Underworld features, there is a great confusion
among the first writers relating to the number of infernal rivers, for
example: Hesiod and Homer only talk about the Styx, but Pindar only
knows the Aqueront and the Styx. The ferryman Charon seems to be known
only since the V Century B. C (the same regarding Hades and Persephone).
Big discrepancies are found between the Iliad and the Odyssey (i. e.,
the first one talks about Kerberus and the second one does not). We
found the idea of the double (with remains of its mortal injuries) as
well as birds (perhaps from Egyptian influence). The Infernal judges are
probably of Orphic origin (VII century B. C.), although the first
mention of their names is in Plato; nothing in the Iliad or the Odyssey
shows us that there is a bit of underworld justice to punish crimes. The
Elysean Fields are probably of Egyptian origin too. Add the Eleusinian
Mysteries to all this stuff and tell me if it has something to do with
an original IE believing.
I would like to mention Lucian's Diogenes talking with Herakles in
the Underworld as a short summary of this point. Diogenes says that
Herakles had two fathers: Amphitryo (being his human nature's father)
and Zeus (his godly aspect), but Herakles retorts that he was only one
person in two bodies. So Diogenes says that he is on risk of creating a
triple Herakles because one of his bodies is in heaven, the other with
him in the Underworld, and a third one buried in the Ida, so it is
possible they have to find a third father for the last body. The whole
story is of course more interesting and funny than my sad summary, but I
think it illustrates very well the confusion that Greek mythology was
into at the end of the third century C. E. and very surely centuries
earlier.
(Please excuse me the misspellings regarding mythological names, I
am used to Spanish names.)
Omar