Re: [tied] More on IE myth

From: MrCaws@...
Message: 6644
Date: 2001-03-20

--- In cybalist@..., Omar Karamán <diogenes@...> wrote:
> I am still alive, Glen :-)
>
> > But... we have two lords fighting over rulership - This much is
clear. This
> > two-lord battle must be ancient because the theme exists not just
in IE myth
> > but in the nearby Middle East as well (El versus Baal). The
battle sometimes
> > involves competing generations of gods but nonetheless there is
indeed a
> > battle for the sky, not the underworld or the earth but the _sky_.
>
> I agree. Perhaps the everlasting battle between Chaos and Order?
>
> > This
> > mythological fact could serve well to obscure the connections
that the IE
> > war god had with the underworld. In other words, the warrior god
fights the
> > sky god in the sky, maybe even taking over and voila! After a
while, people
> > start believing in an originally underworld war god living in the
sky.
>
> But it is a presumption that we may accept or not. It is akin
to
> explain the wickedness on the world saying that Jehovah was
defeated and
> confined to Hell while Satan is the ruler of the universe, don't you
> think?
>
>
> > The whole tripartition theme, I feel, is of prehistoric European
origin.
>
> According with what kind of prehistoric European believing?
Earth
> goddesses, for example?
>
> > I
> > also feel that the IE language (as opposed to culture or
mythology) came
> > ultimately from off the steppes, from the east. The pre-IEs would
come from
> > east to west into the North Pontic-Caspian area by 7000 BCE. So,
the
> > original view of the cosmos of these pre-IEs might have been more
like a
> > dual sky-earth opposition only, without a clear underworld.
>
> I agree, but what about the remains of shamanistic ideas in IE
> myths? Can't they be connected with early Asiatic influences? In
fact,
> shamanistic journeys involve travels to sometimes very well
developed
> Underworlds. Were these ideas taken from the times of the original
IE
> homeland or later?
>
> > The mortal Hero, while having "warrior" characteristics, is not
entirely
> > connected with the underworld. He's human and so he lives in the
earthly
> > realm. It's just how things end up in the tale of the three-
headed serpent.
> >
>
> The Underworld is the common end for all warriors, of course.
But
> which could be the meaning of the warrior journey to the Underworld
> being he alive?
>
> > Cow Mother represents the
> > concept of justice side-by-side with her husband *Dye:us, the law
guy.
>
> I doubt that a patriarchal people could have had a goddess in
so an
> important place, frankly speaking.
>
> > I'm not quite familiar with Celtic mythology but it would seem
that his
> > journey to the faraway land (Scythia, was it?) doesn't relate
greatly to the
> > underworld nor does it appear to connect with any other IE myths.
>
> I took Cú Chulainn travel as an example of common initiation
> patterns. Sometimes far away islands are connected with warrior
> initiation and death. This death is perhaps a symbolic one because
> the initiation patterns in the utmost of cultures (not only from IE
> origin) involve death and resurrection. It seems that the hero has
to
> suffer this experience prior to be seen as a warrior. Whether this
> experience has its place on an island, a far away country, in a
> cave or in the Underworld, the fact is the same, I mean, the
gaining
> of skills, wisdom or whatever name we may use. It is a very common
> motive even in IE myths indeed.
> Bran's story, however, is so much connected with death. The
island
> where he goes to is a place where time is different from ours. When
Bran
> comes to Ireland after a few years, he finds that in fact hundreds
of
> years have passed. Oisin's story has the same pattern (and a lot of
folk
> tales from Japan to Germany). Interestingly, the same phenomenon
happens
> in heaven like places too, but the difference is that the traveller
> doesn't die or gets older. So I think there are strong links
between
> these places and the dead.
>
> > >According to Norse mythology, Thor fights against Jormungard
> > >the serpent. IMHO, the same question arises in another way (the
same
> > >about Herakles and Kerberus).
> >
> > What question?
>
> The question is that, being the warrior function an Underworld
> function (if we stand that there is an Underworld war god), why
does the
> Overworld hero descend to the Underworld? Two fighters facing each
one,
> so to speak, but what for? I see this realm as a deposit of
knowledge
> and skills, incidentally connected with war because skills are
needed to
> fight.
>
> > Cerberus is clearly an IE character (connected to Yama's
> > dog), who guards the underworld. The fact that we have a tale
explaining the
> > reason why there is a wolf guarddog for the underworld, connected
to the
> > labours of Heracles, another clear IE character, tells me that
the capturing
> > of this dog for *Yemos by *Manus, the IE Hero, must have been
part of IE
> > myth to begin with. This canine story would be a second tale of
heroism
> > alongside the well-known underworld-related serpent tale. With
two tales,
> > one concerning the earth and canines, the other concerning the
underworld
> > and serpents, one must start wondering whether there was a third
tale linked
> > to the overworld involving birds. Afterall, there are those
Stymphalian
> > birds...
>
> Dogs and birds are of course related to the Underworld, but
there
> are sympathetic occurrences of these animals. It seems as both of
them
> share a bipartite nature. Birds eating human corpses is an explicit
> image of the Underworld as well as dogs or wolves. But dogs were
buried
> along with men to serve as partners in their Underworld travel, and
> beneficient birds are found everywhere. May we infer from that that
the
> first connection of these animals was with death and that it gave
birth
> to a more kindly nature later?
>
> > I'm speaking about the structure of the IE cosmos. The dead were
in the
> > underworld both in physical terms as well as metaphysical terms.
These
> > isolated stories don't matter when it comes to where the dead
were generally
> > believed to go. As I mentioned, Norse had Hel and the Greeks had
Hades, both
> > under the earth. Of course there are deviations and add-ons like
Valhalla, a
> > specialized heaven, and such, but I'm talking about the general
structure of
> > things in IE beliefs. If we accept that the place of the dead was
in the
> > underworld, we find that, as with everything else, the IE belief
system is
> > much like the ideas in the Middle East and Egypt where we also
find an
> > underworld place of death.
>
> I agree with you about Middle East and Egypt. What I wanted to
say
> was that Underworld places are not the only places for the dead to
rest.
> In addition to this, and having in mind your Valhalla-Hell example,
I
> think that lower realms for the dead are connected with shamanism
(in a
> first stage) and with sorcery (later). Hallucinogenic herbs,
trances or
> sorcerers are needed to establish a reliable connection with
> Underworld dwellers.
>
> > Looking at myths in the general European and Middle-Eastern
areas, there
> > appear to be two main objects in the center of the cosmos. It's
either the
> > tree or the mountain. The central object varies from location to
location
> > and appears to be a little unstable. Mountains however appear to
be
> > restricted to southern locations (Sumer, Greece, Italy) and there
is some
> > overlap with the tree motif too since the tree is even mentioned
in the
> > bible (Genesis) and Sumerian mythology (huluppu). In all, I have
to conclude
> > that the mountain could not have been central to the IE cosmos
(since they
> > didn't live in mountains), leaving only the tree.
>
> OK.
>
> > Further, it makes sense for the purposes of the IE creation myth.
If it was
> > a bird emerging from the primordial waters that created the IE
cosmos (Greek
> > Nyx), it makes sense that the bird would lay a "cosmic egg"
(Vedic religion)
> > from which a great tree (Norse Yggdrasil, Celtic Bile) would
grow. Why?
> > Because the bird was tired of flapping her wings and needed a
place to
> > perch, silly! The bird is found elsewhere associated with
Creation like in
> > the biblical epic of the flood where Noah sends out birds to find
land (a
> > blatant re-Creation tale where the bird flies over eternal
primordial waters
> > all over again).
> >
> > So you see, in all, the IE creation myths clearly support an
avicentric
> > cosmos complete with cosmic eggs and a giant tree as is supported
by the
> > fragments seen in Greek, Indo-Iranian, Germanic and Celtic
religion.
> >
>
> But it is an IE motif then? Are not trees connected with
shamanistic
> practices?
>
> Omar

Warriors and the warrior god are associated with death, but also with
protection of resources, nationalism, etc. I see the journey into the
underworld as aA rite of passage theme which can be traced back to
prehistoric times, a trial of skill and a place to gain knowledge and
magic power, which is the realm of the underworld deity(Linked
variously with serpent, music, sorcery, cattle, horned god etc.)
I think the warrior god is often at odds with the death god, but
this does not make him the death god. He is at war with the serpents
and giants and monsters, connected with the underworld deity. He is
sometimes head of the "pantheon", sometimes not.
As for the dog, dogs are guardian animals. The land of the dead is
often displayed as actual property of the god of the underworld, and
the metaphor could be extended to having a dog to guard the property
(and the cattle, symbolic of the "wealth" of the death god).
-Mr. Caws