Re: Yama's buffalo... or Manus' Horse?

Glen Gordon's post stated

> > *Dye:us represents Law & Order while his spouse, *GWo:uXanos,

represents

> > Justice or rather, the Maintenance of Law & Order. This is clear

by her

> > jealous fits over Zeus' frequent adultery. She exacts revenge and
> punishment
> > to people who cross the societal line.
> >
> > Now, Greek myth has none other than Zeus fathering Heracles,

proving that

> > his birth is definitely otherworldly, and the Hindu counterpart,

Indra, is

> > even a _full_ god, period! Even if we pretend that he's not a

dethroned

> god,
> > Heracles certainly ends up being one again when he marries Hebe,

daughter

> of
> > Hera, in the afterlife after all his labours are done and his

punishment

> is
> > over. So we know that Heracles starts out with a divine birth and

ends up

> > with a divine afterlife with mortal trouble and punishment in the

middle.

Heracles originally was the spouse and consort of Hera (as his name
suggests). When Zeus appeared on the scene Zeus took his place, and
he was demoted. The demotion was reflected in his "12 labours" and
the fact that as a patriarchal culture, it was his past wife (Hera)
and not the usurping spouse (recast as his father, Zeus) who had to
try to dispose of him. He is the immortal of a twin brother,
Iphicles was mortal, Heracles immortal.

João wrote in reply to Glen

> Are there another examples out of Greece that can support your

theory? Are

> you sure that Herakles cycle was an IE myth? There's many traits in

Herakles

> of Gilgamesh tales (I Think Gilgamesh adventures influenced at

least two

> different heroes: Herakles and Ulysses).

All of the Greek myths contain blendings. No such thing as *pure* IE
myth in the Greco-Roman world. They were overlain with many aspects
(and underlain with Old European myths too).

Glen again

> > So if the God Twins are immortal and Heracles also has a divine

birth and

> > one of the Twins commits murder and Heracles ends up mortal and

doing

> > labours... what am I supposed to think? The two stories are

connected

> > perfectly like a jig-saw puzzle.

Very often one God is immortal, the other twin is mortal. This was
certainly the case with Castor and Polydeuces.

> > Joao, try and picture this: *Manus and *Yemos, our accepted Horse

Twins,

> are
> > playing around one day on one of the great branches of the Great

Tree.

> Then
> > all of a sudden when *Yemos isn't looking, *Manus takes his bow

and arrow,

> > shoots his brother in the heart and then slices him up into three

or more

> > pieces. This is the standard IE myth about our rivaling brothers.

Why three pieces Glen. Usually it is two, one becoming the arch of
the sky, the other becoming the ground beneath. This is what
happened to Norse Ymir.

> > Now tell me, Joao. Do you think *Manus should go unpunished for

his crime?

> I
> > doubt you'd say yes. Most sane people would say, "No, fry the
> > son-of-a-bitch!" and that would be the correct answer if you

respect law

> and
> > order like the IEs obviously did. Since you seem to think that

*Manus and

> > Heracles aren't the same, I'm curious... why don't you tell us

how *Manus

> is
> > sentenced by the gods if not by a loss of his immortality. How

else could

> he
> > possibly be punished for such a serious crime? Support this

convincingly

> > with mythological evidence from various IE cultures. If you

cannot, you

> > either have to accept that IE culture supported fratricide...

or....

> accept
> > my connection as valid.

This is not just an Indo European myth. It is part of the Ur-Kultur
that spread with Neolithic cultures, as the story of Cain and Abel
also shows.

> I can't accept this theory. It's not impossible that a Herakles-

like hero be

> some descendant of the First Man, but I think IE myths didnt show

such

> super-heroic Proto-Human.

Heracles was originally not human. He was a divine figure (consort
of the Goddess), down graded to Human status when Zeus displaced him
in Hera's bed. The Labours originally were linked originally to a
descent and return to the underword a la Tammuz.

> >(...)
> > Another reason to expect *Xste:r is the mother of mankind is the

fact that

> > this creates a beautiful symmetry between the Old European goddess
> aspects,
> > Creatrix & Destructrix. *Xste:r is the old Creatrix and

*GWo:uXanos is the

> > Destructrix. *Xste:r offers mercy and forgiveness to *Manus and
> *GWo:uXanos
> > exacts never-ending revenge on *Manus.
>
> You're mixing many different myths of different people to create an
> artificial picture. Let's see what are the *Manus reflexes in IE

people...

> Greece: Minos(?), Minyas(?), Deukalion(?)
> Roma: Romulus-Quirinus
> Germania: Mannuz
> India: Manu, Yama
> Phrygia: Manes
> Celts: Donn ?, Sucellos?, Gaulish "Dis Pater"

The extant IndoEuropean mythos was a mixing together of many such
elements. To disagreegate them is extremely difficult.

> (...)
> >
> > >I'm interested on the "Cycle of *Manus". Did the First Mortal

Man >died?

> He
> > >was killed?
> >
> > This is what I can solve through-and-through with my connections.

It would

> > appear *Manus was NOT killed and DID regain his immortality

because the

> gods
> > felt that he had been punished enough by his labours. So,

*GWo:uXanos'

> > ceased her punishment (cf.Heracles married Hera's daughter in

Greek myth).

> > Take a look at Sumerian Utnapishtim (Noah). I'm sure that this is

a

> related
> > character. He is the oldest man, the one who lived through the

flood, the

> > one that gained immortality. Does this ring a bell? Sounds like

*Manus all

> > over again doesn't it?
>
> Maybe you re confusing IE and Sumerian myths.

IE myths from very early on, and certainly from the time that they
have come down to us all have Sumerian elements. The confusion is
early (but possibly after the split with Anatolian, as they do not
seem to have the pattern that the others have.

Regards

John