Re: [tied] Re: Wheels.

John:

>Glen I am being real. To have built up the astronomical-astrological
>understanding of the early Sumerians requires a huge amount of
>continuous observations over a continuous period. For instance, to
>know what is the ratio of the declination of Venus, above and below
>the sun, and the length of the period in which the son occults
>Venus's view is something that can only be worked out by direct
>observation of Venus EVERY NIGHT in its cycle. If it happens that
>the clouds obscure the view then accurate understanding is lost. I
>don't think you have anything of an accurate understanding of the
>sophistication of Sumerian astrological understanding.

Alright, alright. Maybe. However, the question is whether the climate was
"cloudy" in Eastern Anatolia at the times we're speaking of. Climates
change. In fact, in the case of Vancouver, there is some concern that the
local climate is becoming "rainier" than in the past. And it remarked by
some here in Winnipeg that appears rainier and "moister" than in the recent
past (although I'm honestly not sure the scientific basis for this idea).
Still, point is: climates change.

>I quote for instance from a Fragment of the Table of Contents from
>the Sumerian Great Treatise on Astrology, at the Louvre.
>
>"If the moon becomes dark in the evening ...."
>"If the sky becomes overcast during an eclipse then...."
>[...]

I wouldn't think that astrology would be as sophisticated as this far back
in prehistory. The invention of writing helped to make the Sumerian religion
more complex because writing served as an extended memory. In the past, this
list of prophecies would simply be nothing more than attempts to explain why
the sun or moon are eclipsed, what a shooting star means, etc. Just general
phenomenon for the most part, not as complex as "if the sky becomes overcast
during an eclipse then...".

>Even the Mayans (their only competitors in this "art") came close to >the
>Sumero-Akkadians for their atrological complexity.

Does it get cloudy alot in the jungle? :)

>Glen, Ubaid influences ARE Sumerian. The bolae accounting system
>found throughout the Ubaid area are the first evidence of a proto-
>writing system. They have been shown to be in the Sumerian language!

Aargh, this is a case of differing definitions of Sumerian. Let's try
whenever we can to avoid the word Sumerian and use a more descriptive term.

>Glen they didn't invent agriculture, they invented irrigation,

Only after influences from the north had already taken hold. In this case,
you're speaking of the historical Sumerians but not the Proto-Sumerians
(those indigenous to the south). Be careful of the word "Sumerian", it's
confusing.

>which depended upon water management and a clear understanding of which
>season the floods would come. They used the starts to tell them
>that. People dependent on rain agriculture don't need that type of
>information.

The sky is still important to all ancient agriculturalists regardless of
whether they are using rain or seasonal floods.

- gLeN

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com