Re: Venus and Mars

--- In cybalist@egroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> I (gLeNny) said:
> >Sorry Arkey dude, the Ugaritic myths go back to at least 1400 BCE.
> >The myths include Athtar, Venus, son of Ashera (aka Astarte). The
>Battle
> >of Mot provides a link between Athtar and Baal. This is already
>at the
> >very start of any Hellenic period.
>
> Arkugal:
> >Glen Gordon, what are you talking about? What I said was that MARS

had >no

> >connection neither with the Underworld nor with VENUS. I was
>speaking
> >about the Latin Deities.
>
> I'm sorry??! Do you have books where you live? Look at one, please!

You must

> have at least an encyclopaedia at home, no?

I have books, yes, and I also have one thing that you should have as
well: good sense and clear thought. You keep running to non IE myths
in order to explain IE myths without having any sense of correct
distances between different things.

>
> If we speak solely of Roman myth then, I still don't understand

your claim.

> In Roman myth, Vulcan is the god of FIRE, metalworking and skilled
> craftwork. Vulcan liked to produce ARMOR and WEAPONS (aka WAR

tools). Vulcan

> married VENUS. Of course, Vulcan is based on Hephaestos

Wasn't VULCANO a Roman God equated with HEPHAESTOS by hellenic
influence? Anyway. (Greek god) but this

> is still part of Roman myth nonetheless. Hephaestos was linked to

VULCANOES.

> What's inside vulcanoes? Lava, otherwise known as FIRE. Where does

this

> firey lava reside? Under the earth (aka UNDERWORLD).
>
> Who do you think Vulcan-Hephaestos represents? Gee, well we have a

direct

> connections with VENUS, FIRE, WAR and the UNDERWORLD. Who could

that

> possibly be, I wonder? Could it be the god *PexwrGnnos, Fire-Born?

Neah,

> that's just too simple an idea to grasp at all, isn't it? It has to

be

> something more complex and obscure in order for Arkugal to respect

this as a

> valid point of view.

We were talking about MARS, not about VULCANO: you were saying that
the War Deity was Underworldly and than I asked for SOLID proofs,
which you could never provide, not for a single moment. Unfortunately
for you, MARS haves no special connection with the Underworld, and
the same happens with all the other typical War Divinities of the IE
world: ARES, THOR, INDRA, PERKUNAS, according Dumezil. I have read
once that VULCANO could have warlike functions, but He was not THE
God of War. MARS is.

> There is no dispute here.

Of course not. Just a situation where one asks about cherries and
another answers that the apples are orange because there is another
fruit coming from the trees which is orange-coloured as well. That is
not a dispute.

>You've lost this arguement.

This last statement clearly shows your inability to argue in a proper
scientific way. An advice: do not be so hasty, if you want to avoid
more unpleasant situations like this one.

>
> Second, Venus truely DID have an extramarital love affair with

_Mars_, so I

> REALLY do not know what you're babbling about but it's very

misinformed at

> any rate. What I've mentioned is all Roman myth.

NO, it is a Greek myth adopted by the Romans. If you can't tell the
difference...

> Arkugal:
> >Now, you insist on arguing that in Semitic tradition this and

that, >etc.,

> >but that is, literally, beside the point. You assume that the IE
> > >mythologies are determinated by the Semitic ones and that's

final. >Well,

> >all your statments are good indications that the Semitic
>influence is far
> >less important than some people say. Because, in >fact, MARS and

VENUS are

> >two IE Latin Deities, and ASTARTE, and BAAL, >etc., are Semitic.

That's

> >all.
>
> You are clearly dillusional if you honestly believe that the Latin

deities

> are pure, native creations.

I didn't say that.

> They certainly

Oh, those «certainlies»...they might be excellent chances of work,
but to know them does not allow free imagination when one wants to
understand ancient traditions.

>derive from a proto-IE set of
> myths because of the similarities amongst other beliefs of IE

speaking

> peoples.

Yes, certainly, but, can you find those similarities?
I did not deny IE origins for any Latin myth, what I keep saying is
that your connections are not convincent.

> However, there are still a million and one connections between the

so-called

> proto-IE myths, which must by definition go back to around 4000 BCE

or so,

> and the myths of the MiddleEast even though names of these deities

will

> differ.

Why MUST all the IE myths «go back» to the myths of the MiddleEast
Semitic folks? Gratuitous statement of yours.

> The so-called IE *Tritos myth is clearly related to the story of
> Marduk and Tiamat (aka Baal and Yam) across the ancient MiddleEast.

The

> association of a bull to the sky god as we find in IE myth is

another

> MiddleEastern concept and is not originally IE.

Explain why.

> And yet, for there to have
> been a connection between IE and MiddleEastern belief, this

connection would

> have to have been pre-historic.

Meanwhile, I remind you about MARS...don't go too far away...again.

> I can bring up many direct IE-MiddleEastern connections, if you

like.

Do it. But I remind you that you must be able to proove that those
connections mean a Semitic MiddleEastern origin of all the IE
religious traditions.

> There
> are certainly far too many clear connections in fact to support

your insane

Is it insanity to ask about the connection between MARS - and the IE
War Gods in a general way - and the Underworld and not receive any
convincent answer? To whom belongs the insanity, here?...


Once again, Glen Gordon, remember

MARS - War God -------------Underwordly?
IE War Deity ---------------Underworldy?