Glen (Me):
>I still don't understand. What's the reflex of *worsa-? And why is
>*-nos (passive?) attached to it? How does this make grammatical >sense >in
>IE?
Joao:
>Sanskrit varsa- "rain", from *WERS- "wet, sprinkle, rain", [...]
>*-NOS is a suffix widely spread over theonyms: Wothanaz, Neptunus,
> >Silvanus, Nechtan, Portunus, etc. Also present in Gothic >thiudans "king"
>(<*thiudanaz <*teutonos), Lat tribunus, dominus (<*domu-nos). The suffix
>-nos can be equivalent to -potis "master, >owner", cf. Sans. dam-pati- x
>Lat dominus.
But *-nos had clear functions in IE grammar. A word like *teuto-n-os "of the
people" is the genitive of *teutos, no? So to with /dominus/ "of the house".
The question is what *Wa:tnos (Wothanaz) precisely means. If there is an IE
word like **wa:tr "spell, incantation", then the word could mean something
like "(he) of the incantation" and therefore the *-nos is another case of
the heteroclitic genitive.
>The meaning of *Yemos (or Ymmos?) must be "twin". So, Ymir make sense
>(<*Yumijaz). But Indo-Iranians have Yama & Yima. Jaan Puhvel deducted
> >Latin Remus as a modification of *Iemus, with R- through association
> >with Romulus.
Yes. All correct from what I've read. I haven't seen a form like **Ymmos
though and I'm not sure why you suggest it but *Yemos does mean "Twin". Yama
would be the correct reflex of *Yemos, and Yima, a derivation. Since *Manus
(Indic Manu) is the progenitor of mankind, a good name for *Yemos was
pointless since he was too busy being slain by his brother. :)
>I know this colour symbolism white-red-dark color (blue/green/black) x
>priest-warrior-peasant. But how can we know if any god's color came >from
>PIE base?
Erh, how do you mean? Did you mean: "How can we be sure that the colour
symbolism is of IE origin?" I've already given another email with Mallory's
quote concerning the IE evidence that should help with this question.
Coincidentally, I have another email to give the List, with connections that
should blow the socks of everyone... or at the very least reaffirm
suspicions of my madness ;(
A food for thought in the mean time: I believe that the IE colour symbolism
might be a blend of Semitish (white=order, red=chaos) and Steppe (light=sky,
dark=earth) colour symbolisms. More later... I still have to talk about my
reconstructed Steppe grammar modeled on Modern Mandarin... phew! Busy, busy,
busy.
>I didn't say Apocalyptical Fire came from Underworld! In India , The >Fire
>will came from Submarine Horse-headed Fire, or from Horse-Headed >Giant
>Avatar of Vishnu.
Hmm, the question is what how this horse-headed figure fits with everything.
In Old European mythos, the horse would be a Middleworld representation of
the Goddess but maybe I've missed the mark.
>Surtur came from South. I believe PIE people believed in a distant
> >Southern Land of Fire. Cf. Muspellsheim (Does anybody knows the
> >etymology of Muspell-?)
What is the evidence concerning this southern land of fire outside Germanic
mythology?
>In Ragnarok Loki doesn't burn anything...he kills
>Heimdallr, like Mahabharata, when Bhishma was killed by an "avatar' of
>Shiva.
... but a fire ensues nonetheless (autumn), only to be frozen over (winter)
for the next creation (spring). The point is Loki, as fire, starts the
renewal process.
>I think LOKI was a composite of two PIE components:
>1) The Trickster Fire-God (Prometheus, Agni)
>2) A god or giant, progenitor of monsters (Typhon?, Phorkys?, Tvashtr (cf
>his children Vrtra, Trishiras) . He is not necessarily "malign".
I firmly agree with you that fire was not considered purely evil in IE myth
as it is viewed in Christian symbolism. In a herder-cultivator sense, fire
was actually _helpful_ because it promoted renewal and new plant growth.
This concept further underlines an agricultural connection between Creation
and Ragnarok in Norse myth, in my view.
So now, in regards to this second component... Trishiras is that
three-headed serpent who represents the three social functions for each
head, killed off by the human hero *Tritos (Trita Aptya) with the help of
*Pexwrgnnos (Indra). Serpents are an Old European symbol equated with
destruction and the watery underworld.
Vrtra.... Ah, here we are. Wait a minute, this is the story of Tiamat! It's
that damn serpent again (aka Mother Goddess as Destroyer/Waters/Underworld)
who is slain to create the world from her innards and skin (sky). You can
strike this god from the IE mythos. The IE equivalent of Vrtra is already
explainable as Da:nu, the primordial waters. This is also a god linked to
_water_, not fire.
These "offspring" smell of rehashed myths and appear to be secondary. Hmm,
one website says that Tvashtr is identical to Brahma, the Creator. If so,
this combined with the begetting of *Da:nu (of all the deities!) seems to
suggest to me that this has nothing to do with "fire" at all but rather that
Tvashtr is a later figure put in the role of creator of the basic gods found
in the original IE Creation myth, begetting Saranyu (aka Sun Maiden) as
well!
Likely story. Sounds like there is still ONE fire god: *XegWnis "Little
Fire".
Joao:
>Maybe the Proto-Sumerian mythology was akin to Dravidian Mythology.
Actually, I'm starting to accept that there could have been influence
between Sumerian and Indic mythology. Just seeing the spread of the Bird
Creation myths (Old European Creator Goddess) shows that mythology can
spread like wildfire in a relatively short period of time.
- gLeN
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